All I want is to do some super-basic designs. Why is engraving the Da Vinci Code?

What I was saying is there is no set way of getting to where you want to go and however you get there you should enjoy it. If you want to spend time figuring out hand sharpening and how doing it poorly will cause engraving to be endlessly frustrating, please do it, enjoy. If you're working on your own minimizing negative variables will most likely teach you more about engraving, of course it teaches you nothing about hand sharpening gravers but what is it you want to learn?

Bob

The greatest advantage DW has over most of the rest of us starting out is that he has time on his side. Starting at 29 is a lot better than at 55 when you want to get into the art/craft as quickly as possible and see that we might only have 20 years at the bench at the best. This is why we grasp at all the new teaching aids and shortcuts available.

Roger

Sorry guys, if I had the opportunity, within reason, to jump start my ability to engrave ...... consistently ... by some of the equipment we have today I would jump at the opportunity. Yes, all these years have taught me a lot, as many on here are self taught, I was fortunate to meet a fellow that would allow me to watch him engrave. He would then only give me positive critique on what I would turn out. Those were the hobby days, as I understand will be for you. I see the benefit of using air assist tools in my work today being a full time artisan. Maybe next year you'll have a better understanding and different perspective ..... that is, after the fever has set in from the blood letting ceremony.
Good luck in your venture.
Mark

Roger B said:

The greatest advantage DW has over most of the rest of us starting out is that he has time on his side. Starting at 29 is a lot better than at 55 when you want to get into the art/craft as quickly as possible and see that we might only have 20 years at the bench at the best. This is why we grasp at all the new teaching aids and shortcuts available.

Roger

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Demographically, you might be able to grasp at the new stuff because you have income

I'm one of those young graduates who are unemployed or under-employed. My PhD plans were rather derailed by my gimpyness so I finished an MA instead. And just you try getting a crappy part-time job with an MA degree in this economy, hahaha.

I took the metalwork class last year to keep myself sane during the thesis research/writing process. Selling things I make now seems like a potentially viable form of supplemental income. Even if I'm not up to commuting to work and putting in 40hr weeks, I can sit here and tinker around in my workshop for hours.

So now you know why I'm not shelling money for the GRS systems and such - just tryin to keep off the gov't doles is challenging enough ^_-

Ok, sob-story over. :beatup:

P.S. If you want to look at my baby-steps (try not to laugh) you can see some of my work here

DW,

Given the simplicity of what you hope to accomplish with engraving, the soft metals you work in, and your lack of money for factory made tools I will suggest the following:
A graver can be made from a small worn out triangular file. Rub the tip on a stone, trying the best you can to hold a 45 degree angle. Drill a hole in a 3 inch length of 1 inch dowel rod or broom handle and insert the tang of the file and you have your chisel. If you can't afford/find a triangular file you can do the same with a 3" long concrete nail but you will have to do much more rubbing of the tip on the stone to form a triangular tip and have to resharpen more often as you work.

For a hammer you can use the smallest hammer you have or if you don't have/can't afford a hammer you can tap the chisel with a small rock that will fit comfortably in the palm of your hand.

For work holding, find a rock that is round on the bottom and flat on the top and weighs five pounds or more. Affix your work piece or practice plate to the rock with hot glue, Bondo, or any other adhesive that will keep the plate from coming loose when it is tapped with the chisel.

It doesn't get any simpler or cheaper than that. In case you think I am having you on, I assure you that I have known engravers who became quite masterful who started many years ago with tools as simple and home made as I have described above. The rest is up to you. The tools that my colleagues have recommended will get you going quicker and easier than my recommendations but since the main ingredients needed to become an engraver are motivation and tenacity, you will have all you need until you can earn enough for better tools.

Now get to it and let us know how it goes.

RB

Stress is a killer, it takes its toll now and in the future. I'll lend you a Lindsay Universal template for a few weeks, and I'll pre-sharpen a couple of HSS gravers to get you started. I know you'll need more than this to get started but it's a beginning. You'll need some type of stones to keep the gravers sharp, we'll need to work on this and a work holding solution. If you're interested in the template say the word.

Bob

Roger Bleile said:

DW,

Now get to it and let us know how it goes.

RB

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I sure will! And thanks ^_^

Red Green said:

Stress is a killer, it takes its toll now and in the future. I'll lend you a Lindsay Universal template for a few weeks, and I'll pre-sharpen a couple of HSS gravers to get you started. I know you'll need more than this to get started but it's a beginning. You'll need some type of stones to keep the gravers sharp, we'll need to work on this and a work holding solution. If you're interested in the template say the word.

Bob

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That's super-kind of you, Bob! Though I'm actually not so destitute that I'll be using a rock and a cement nail, haha. I recently sold a few jewelry pieces I made - so I used some of the proceeds to order a Muller Carbon Steel Flat Graver #40 [not HSS, but if/when it breaks it was $5 and I won't cry over it], and a 2-pack of half-head handles.

As for stones, I have a DMT extra-extra fine, and a Lanksy extra-fine. I got those a while back to maintain my leather knife. I also have leather, jeweler's rouge, and a strop mounted to a board. I keep some 600 & 400 grit metal sandpaper around, too.

For work-holding - and ya'll are gonna laugh at me - a while back I bought this super-cheap rotating vise off Amazon. I find that if I unscrew part of it just a tad, the ball joint rotates freely. I've got a piece of scrap wood in it right now, and I figure I can use E-6000, some hot glue, tacks or something to affix scrap metal to it. All I have to do is not stab myself horribly, and I'll get at least a taste of push-graving all for about $10.

When that probably fails, I'll look into getting a chisel. And I might be able to make myself a leather sandbag with all the supplies I've built up over the years.

As for hammers, I've got: a rawhide, a tack hammer, a french riveting hammer (which I want to keep just for that), and a small brass mallet.

Finally, my 'drill press' setup is this thing.

I'll be sure to take pics of my grievous injuries and hilarious first attempts ^_- Thanks again - ya'll are great!

Good Look Red!!!!!

Arent you close to DW,texas?

I bought the template and holder used and it's a spare, I intended to use it to loan out as you only need one. Flats are not used for line engraving by most engravers I don't believe. You should start with square or perhaps a onglette, perhaps someone with more hand push experience could tell you more. The stones may work fine, but I'm a little leery of the vise. Don't try to use the vise loose at any rate it will not work and may be dangerous if you try. First it is not a centering vise so the work would not spin correctly at any rate. It may work as a stationary vise but if it will move or break loose it is a danger to your work and to you. Hot gluing the work on a wooden block (a 4X4 would be safer for your hand, and don't use treated wood) on a leather or canvas sandbag should work to start. If you add a smooth working turntable to it you may get a little more control for longer cuts. Let's hope you don't get in the hokey pokey club and believe me nobody that engraves will find your first attempts funny.

Bob

I'm not sure what you mean Mike. Texas is much like Alaska as everything is far away, Houston is 150 miles away. We lack some of the ice and snow but we have longhorns and Austin to make up for it.

Bob

Red Green said:

Flats are not used for line engraving by most engravers I don't believe. You should start with square or perhaps a onglette, perhaps someone with more hand push experience could tell you more.

Bob

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Oh - good call. I contacted Metalliferous to add a square graver to my order. I should have done that in the first place since the handles come in 2-packs. Now I'll have two stabby things to work with!

150 miles? I went to UT Austin for 2.5 years for my BA - so watch it, buddy. :no:

Well now you must admit like ice and snow longhorns are nice to look at and Austin is a pain in the...


Bob

Austin Community College just purchased 10 Ensets for there metals program. They will be offering engraving courses next semester. They also teach stone setting and jewelery techniques.

A thought I had regarding your acquisition of tools is that you could use your skill with leather to make sand bags for engravers. You could make them custom as far as size and shape or standard sizes. I would think that people would be willing to trade other tools for them as well. this is how I started at the age of 16. I made many pins nickel silver for a motorcycle gang in Detroit where I grew up.They were of there logo they were pierced out and then I chased all the dimension and details in them. I charged five dollars each. I made enough to buy my first flex shaft machine. I think the cost for it was eighty dollars.

I could use a nice sandbag and have plenty of extra tools to trade for.

Chris

Christian give you an excellent idea, i had trade in the past ( and now a lot of times too) my hobo nickels for tools, instructionals books and DVD,knifes to engrave, "the original Hobos way " hehehe and is an excellent way to start , i'm sure that a lot of people will be interested in custom handmade sandbags!

Red Green said:

I bought the template and holder used and it's a spare, I intended to use it to loan out as you only need one. Flats are not used for line engraving by most engravers I don't believe. You should start with square or perhaps a onglette, perhaps someone with more hand push experience could tell you more. The stones may work fine, but I'm a little leery of the vise. Don't try to use the vise loose at any rate it will not work and may be dangerous if you try. First it is not a centering vise so the work would not spin correctly at any rate. It may work as a stationary vise but if it will move or break loose it is a danger to your work and to you. Hot gluing the work on a wooden block (a 4X4 would be safer for your hand, and don't use treated wood) on a leather or canvas sandbag should work to start. If you add a smooth working turntable to it you may get a little more control for longer cuts. Let's hope you don't get in the hokey pokey club and believe me nobody that engraves will find your first attempts funny.

Bob

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Don't start with an onglette, use a square graver every time. Onglettes have their uses but compared with a square graver it is limited and they are really difficult to sharpen even with a fixture. Forget them to begin with. I've been engraving since 1978 and have never bothered with them and have never been at a disadvantage for not having an onglette.

If you want a cheap, simple handle they can be made up from a 3" piece of broom handle. I made my own handles for 25 years when I used to hand push.

If you are just working on soft metals such as gold and silver a leather sandbag will suffice as Bob says.

But it's also worth remembering that gravers are set up differently for different materials. Gun engravers require a heel to keep the graver sharp and for it to perform and lift so it will work well passing through steel whereas a copperplate engraver often has next to zero lift and a lot of the time, no heel. The only lift is at the handle end so as the fingers clear the work. Western engravers use a totally different setup to the previous two styles.

So it is worth assessing exactly what it is you are going to engrave and what you are going to engrave on it. You don't want to use a hammer and chisel on jewellery for example, that's like using a flame thrower to cook a steak! If you can, do take a class or find a friendly local engraver willing to give you some starter tips as this will save you a lot of time and angst.

If you are determined to self teach with manual tools be prepared for a lot of blood, sweat and tears because, with nobody to guide you, you have an enormous learning curve to climb. It can be done but with the very basic tools and little knowledge it will take a long time (think in terms of months rather than days or weeks with air assistance) so be prepared for this and don't expect good results instantly.

Good luck!

Another simple holding method is the pitch bowl, which has some advantages over the sandbag.

Again, it can be a DIY project - using a small metal mixing bowl, some plaster of Paris and topping it with pitch.

The German red or US Northwest green pitch are best, you don't need much - a one inch layer will probably do.

Do NOT use the black street tar sometimes called "pitch".


Brian


Sandbags are more economically made using two rows of machine stitching. Hand stitching, while it can be done - doubles the cost time and moneywise if your intention is to produce them to trade or sell...

Dang it Brian
Don't you want your studio to smell like a fresh asphalt street, instead of a pine Forrest