How Long?

I figure this question will have many answers and I'm using myself as an example.
I have no training in engraving, never been to any school to even learn the basics. I have seen engraved peices. I have tooled leather. I consider myself an excellent woodworker. I was a steel rule die maker for 30 years and an aircraft sheetmetal mechanic in the Air Force so working with metal is not a mystery to me. I seem to pick up new things quickly..especially after someone shows me the basics. I am good at doing things with my hands.
Here's the question.....typically how long did it take you to learn to engrave at a level that you could call yourself proficient? I realize the more you work at something, the better you become. I don't mean a Master Engraver but where the items you did engrave actually looked like something. Don't sandbag....I see yall's work posted in the Gallery and in the forum....what some of you call not so good, looks excellent to me.
The length of learning time required will not deter me....Father Time might but...learning time won't.
I look forward to all you answers
Thanks
Jerry

Jerry,
Not as qualified as some here but will throw in my $.02 anyway.
There are a few ways to engrave, push, hammer & chisel and pwr assisted with air (pnuematic).
I use hammer & chisel so I can't speak about the power assisted only that they say the learning curve is much less.( especially if you take a class or 2) You need basics first.
Once and only when you learn to sharpen your gravers can you go to work. The more you practice the better it gets. it took me a couple of years on & off but cuttin' some everyday to be kinda in the intermediate
class I would say. If you can devote full time and can take a class the time is less.
Drawing is paramount also imho. designing is much harder than the cutting, again my opinion.
Engraving(for me at least) involves lots of art, observation, attention to details, drawing , transferring designs, sharpening tools, and all the different disiplines of the art. So many things there ain't room to list them here!
Proficiency, that will be up to "your" customers in the end. In the end everybody will learn at a different speed, only your desire to learn can/ will carry you on. I also think even the "old timers" here will say the learning never stops when it comes to the art we call engraving.
you've come to the right place.
Kent

OK Jerry, heres the low down from my point of view. You have tooled leather, so you should have a basic concept of pattern layout. I have been to 2 engraving classes, and it seemed to me the people I attended with had a real problem with the drawing and pattern aspect, and therefore, clouded the whole deal for them. Fortunatly, I am an old saddlemaker, and had a knowledge of such, and I always thought of it as the same, just working on a different medium. With your past experience and present talents, I think you will grasp hold of the basic concepts and be able to build from there. By the way.....I seen the spurs you crafted out of wood, very nice! The one thing you have going for you is passion and desire to learn this trade, thats the most important. If you have that, everything else will fall into place. Amount of time? who knows? You will know when you get to the profecient stage. Just remember, there is a never ending learning stage. Hope this has shed some light on your question. See you in Sept.......Herman

I can't give you solid numbers, but I can tell you how it's gone for me so far.

I have no training, no classes (yet - I'm working on that), am not a woodworker, haven't done leatherwork, and my drawing skills are such that I'm a photographer.

Nonetheless my ever-indulgent wife bought me a full GRS system.
It arrived June 16th. If you look in this thread there's a link to a 'Small Object Photography Tutorial' I did last weekend - 1 month and 1 week after getting my stuff. The two pieces I used as examples were ones I had recently completed.

Edited to add: click here for a thread with just the pictures of the engravings

They're not that great. Lots of flaws and oddities.

But they still look pretty darn good. Turns out engraving is one of those things that just seems to start at a certain level of looking good and go up from there. Since you've looked around here you've seen that it can go way up from there.

I'm thinking that you will need to master a much smaller skill set than I need to become 'proficient'. You've already got art and layout skills so you're up on me there. I'm into knives and sharpening comes easy to me so I may be a bit ahead of you there (mostly I was smart enough to get the Dual Angle sharpening fixture). From my photography I've got a good feel for some things in layout.

I think the main things you'll have to learn are:
Lettering / script. Engraved script is not done at all like calligraphy.
Lines. The different gravers give different kinds of lines and there are tricks to their use. I'm fairly good with my 90 degree graver but my 120 still likes to tip, dig, and just meander around on me. This is just a matter of time and practice, the same as with any other tool.

This weekend I'll post pictures of last night's little project. I put a rosette on my cheap Zippo. Turns out that the cheap ones are hard to work on - the metal had hard and soft spots, I can't get paint to stick to it to darken it, I was so happy I got my design transferred over I failed to notice it was slightly off center, etc.. But once again, it still manages to look fairly nice.

If you can dedicate yourself to it (several hours a day of practice) you'll probably be producing 'acceptable' results in a couple of months. Hanging out here should help. I expect to get lots of good advice on lighters after I post my questions.

I don't mean a Master Engraver but where the items you did engrave actually looked like something.

Click to expand...

I was astounded to get to that point in just a few hours of practice time. Sure, they were lumpy, misshapen, and somewhat scratched 'somethings' but still...

The way the powered gravers just seem to want to make the lines is what tempted me into this.

I happen to have a good example here to show.

Sam, Please forgive me if this is a little too self promoting but I think it applies to the question asked.

This is a pic a student from last weeks beginners class sent me. The top plate is the one I cut as a demo and sample to the class and the bottom plate is his plate he worked on in the class. This guy had never picked up a graver before walking into the door here. He was in his words a "blank slate".

For one week of instruction, guided practice and effort on his part I think the results are pretty good. Granted, he has a ways to go before I would recommend he start cutting valuable knives and guns but he accomplished a lot in a week.

I also want to point something out here. I know I am going to get sideswiped if I don't. In that basic class we do work on scroll design as well as cutting. However, we work on the two separately. I have found it is nothing but an exercise in frustration to have students with no background to try and cut what they design since their design skills are not yet where they need to be to do that.

I have a lot more success having beginning students work on their drawing skills in the sketchbook and practice their cutting skills on pre-drawn designs. When the drawing skills get up to par the two are easily combined.

Kent is right. Taking a class or two really shortens the learning curve. Whether you take them from me or from Brian Marshall's school or GRS a class will really be a big boost over teaching yourself.

Jerry,
Since you live in Texas, be aware there is a fellow named Johny Weyerts who teaches a week long engraving class once a month at his home in Alpine TX. Johny is a great engraver, one of the best teachers I have ever experienced, and just one heck of a nice guy. For me, attending his class was probably the cheapest money I ever spent. Good luck.

Stewart Williamson

Ray
I would like to append onto what you are saying here, in that separating the design part from the cutting part is indeed efficient. There are a lot of sources of existing art that is designed well that you can work from until you learn to cut a good line.

I also found that making LOTS OF SMALL practice plates is much more subjectively rewarding than doing ONE BIG ONE. I found that if I cut a fairly complicated drawing on a small practice plate, I dont sink very much time into any one piece. You just tell yourself the first dozen or so are going to be thrown away. But then I found that one out of every five or six will actually come out nice. Then its two out of five, then three out of five, etc. But if you do some big sheet and try to fill up the whole thing, you will have all the bad days work on the same piece as the good days work. You still have to put in the time, but when the winning cuts start, its nice if they are isolated on their own little jewel.

Thanks to all who answered...yall are all a great help....especially Herman cause he's the one who is going to teach me some of the basics. For some reason, I thought this might be one of those hobby's where if you didn't start in your teens or early 20's... then you may have waited too long..I see that is not the case.
I was mostly concerned about the purchase of all the tooling...I was leery of buying them and then learn that I'd waited too long to ever get good at this.
I guess now all I gotta do is get to drawing and buying equipment.
Thanks
Jerry

Drawing is important for sure. But make sure that you spend lots of time learning how to make good cuts and sharpen tools. The artist will come out in you with time. I have never seen anyone too old to start engraving.

P.S. I still wish I had the time to go to some good engraving classes!

KSnyder said:

Jerry,
Not as qualified as some here but will throw in my $.02 anyway.
There are a few ways to engrave, push, hammer & chisel and pwr assisted with air (pnuematic).

Kent

Click to expand...

Hi Kent.
I think most of what you said in your reply was excellent advise about the time and methods of learning to engrave.
Just wanted to point out for the benefit of newer folks that there is another form of power engraving as well as pnuematic.
These are the power handpieces that run on a flex shaft machine.
The leading brand of these is made by the Ngraver Company IMO.
This machine enables a new engraver to enter the power field at a very low $ point, especially if they already have the flex shaft motor for other shop uses and just require the handpiece.
One of the advantages of this machine, other than low price, is its ability to easily produce the progression
cut marks that are usually visable in hammer and chisel engraving.
This is a very valuable asset when it comes to restoring or recutting some older worn or damaged engraving.
Recutting and restoration are jobs often tackled by some of the newer folks.
Very fine and beautifully shaded work can be done with these tools.
Some folks might like to look at the work of Jerry Whitmore, a FEGA Certified Pro, which was all done with an Ngraver Magna-Graver.
His work can be seen in many engraving books and also in the Pro picture section on the www.fega.com website.
Hope this is a help to some, just something else to consider when getting started in the engraving field.
John B.

Hello All,
The pic in Ray's post is of my work…well, his too. I always enjoyed looking at engraved items and never thought that I would have the ability to do it. Without any prior knowledge other than the posts I have read on a few forums, I decided to try a Beginner's Class. I owned no engraving tools, have never watched someone engrave, and own Meek's book which I have refused to read due to the strong mothball smell (thanks to that eBay seller). I showed up with an open mind and within one week, I realized that engraving was fun, creative (for this engineer), challenging, and doable. Other than the obvious things you learn...gravers and correct sharpening techniques, scroll design, tips and tricks, do's and don'ts, where's and why's...the thing that was of most value to me was Confidence. I am sure that if I would have tried this on my own without a class, I would have spent a year or so struggling and frustrated, posted a hundred questions, purchased tools and supplies and things I would not need, and probably would have given up all together...heck, I probably paid for the class by "dialing in" the equipment that I need and eliminating the tools that I didn't. WARNING though...if you choose to attend a class with Ray, you will leave the class everyday both physically and mentally exhausted!!! Do not plan on any sightseeing or partying the week you are there You will get out of it what you put in to it. Worth every penny and then some...Confidence is priceless once you leave the class and you're on your own. Brian

Hi Jerry

I always quite like these sort of threads as the opinions thrown into the ring are always interesting. So I'll throw my 2 cents in as well.

Judging by your background I don't think you will have any problems with the mechanics of engraving. By that I mean sharpening, patternmaking etc. Naturally a class would be the best way to go. A week of intensive learning from a good teacher is always worth it's weight in gold and cheap at twice the price. There are also a number of good instructional videos/DVDs out there that can set you on your way.

How long it takes is up to you and that is probabley in direct proportion to how much time you have to throw at it and at what level you become satisfied with your work. It's never to late to learn anything and so long as you are enjoying what you do who cares anyway.

The drawing side can be a lot trickier than the actual engraving but again, practice, study, time and apptitude can take care of that.

There are a few tools that will definatley cut your learning time down and let you get into the guts of it pretty quickly.

John B mentioned the Magna Graver from N Graver company. It's a good tool and in the hands of a skilled engraver can produce stunning work. There are of course other tools but they go up in price. All of them will get you going faster in the beginning. If you havn't got 30 years in front of you to do all this in then I would highly recommend you buy some sort of power assist tool. You wont regret it.

A dual angle sharpener from GRS or Hamler tools combined with a power hone from GRS will make sharpening your tools a peice of cake. Especially if you add to that Sam Alfanos sharpening video/DVD. It's no big mystery and easy to do with good tools to do it with.

You can start out with an optivisor (if your eyes are up to it) and small, cheap engineers swivel vice for flat practice plates.

If you decide that you are enjoying the engraving then maybe get a ball vice and microscope later on and build up a collection of tools. Some essential to engraving but most only essential to have and play with.

The biggest question is how much time do you have to enjoy and learn this art? The answer will dictate weather or not you go the hammer and chisel and hand sharpening way or the power assist way. Both are hand engraving.

Whatever you decide I wish you luck in your new adventure.

Cheers
Andrew