Thoughts on this hand engraved Sherrif badge

sandmanbrian · Oct 20, 2012

Greetings:
I am a new member and seek observations about this shield. It has an Ed Jones hallmark on the back. Was this badge stamped and then engraved? Or was it completely engraved? Over the past few decades I have collected antique Police badges and thgis is one example.

Brian..........................

Arnaud Van Tilburgh · Oct 20, 2012

Brian, as a goldsmith engraver, in my opinion this is a casting, too rough being cut directly into the metal

arnaud

DakotaDocMartin · Oct 20, 2012

It looks like it was die struck, engraved and then enameled.

Brian Marshall · Oct 20, 2012

It was die struck. I have replaced the pin backs on many of these.

Once upon a time, when I lived in Pleasanton (Alameda County) we made a bunch of miniature sterling badges for the Sheriffs Posse.

Also did a lot of other work for them... retirement & presentation badges and buckles. Silver for the Posse saddles, etc.

The Ed Jones Company is not far away over in Oakland. Most products were die stuck and then some (few) were then detailed with hand engraving.

The older badges that were made of both gold and silver were more likely to be hand engraved after the striking.

That is happening less and less, as the precious metal badges are rarely ordered anymore.

Brian

We still do badge restoration & enameling for a number of collectors... but only on those made of silver or gold.

sandmanbrian · Oct 20, 2012

Thanks for your observations arnaud

Brian...........................................................

sandmanbrian · Oct 20, 2012

That is interesting Brian.
We live in a small World lol
I apprciate the background info you shared.
You are correct this is a Posse shield.
The older precious metal badge are usualy nice designs.

Brian...........................................................................

Brian Marshall · Oct 20, 2012

I just looked closer...

(One should always put glasses on before committing to something that may be wrong into a post that may embarrass the hell out of you

It doesn't look crisp enough to be struck. Something doesn't "feel" right.

Usually these things are in my hand and I can tell immediately by weight what they are made of.

What is the material it is made of? That will tell me/us if I was dead wrong...

Does It just have the Ed Jones mark?

I just called a friend at the Sheriffs Dept to tell me who this might have been made for.

Brian

Peter E · Oct 20, 2012

Judging only from the picture, I would agree with Arnaud that it is a casting.

Brian Marshall · Oct 20, 2012

Don't think Ed Jones did/does castings, but will find out Monday.

Brian

Arnaud Van Tilburgh · Oct 21, 2012

Brian, if it is a cast copy, also a Ed Jones mark is copied. I do some castings as well on jewellery, and if I make a copy of a silver item that have already my master stamp and metal stamp on it, also that will be visible on the copy almost like on the original one. So making a cast copy really is a copy all the way.

arnaud

Marrinan · Oct 21, 2012

In looking at he piece could it be a stamping from a warn die?- Fred

sandmanbrian · Oct 21, 2012

This is a badge I obtained from a long time Police badge collector.
It came from the estate of Elvis Prestley in approx 1978.
The metal is silver and the hallmark is authentic.
Back then collecting wasn't the big profit making business it is today lol

Brian ...................................................................................................

Brian Marshall · Oct 21, 2012

So the badge is gold plated?

B.

sandmanbrian · Oct 22, 2012

Some of my graphics that I posted in other online sites has been taken by others and they claimed ownership. As a precaution I make color changes or only show a partial image. That is to prove I am the originator. When I carried a federal wallet badge there always were embeded errors with the badge and ID credentials. Additionaly some badges carry security authentication marks on the reverse.Anyone showing a perfect set was in alot of trouble.

So to answer your question the D/Sheriff shield is silver with a a rich patina. The highpoints have acquired wear patterns and are therefore smoother then the rest of the badge. Some wallet badges are actually bent to the shape of the persons rump from years of sitting on them lol That is fine but they are virtualy impossible to straighten out without distorting the lettering or the coat-of-arms. This an observation from personal experience when I obtained several out-of-date bent badges from the property department for free. Eventualy I just left the curvature alone.

cowboy_silversmith · Oct 22, 2012

This particular badge is die struck with hard fired enameling. I worked at the Ed Jones Company from 1977 to 1981.
This is where I first saw the actual process of hand engraving with my own eyes. And where I developed my desire
to learn and perform hand engraving myself. They are a general engraving business and there main thrustof fabrication
is making Police, Fire Protection and Security badges. All badges were die struck and never cast at all. 90 percent of
all the lettering in the badges were invidually hand stamped and applied with hard fired enamel. When I worked there. I
would estimate they had 400 - 500 dies dating as far back as 1899.

Kind Regards,
Greg Pauline

Roger Bleile · Oct 22, 2012

Greg,

How do the craftsmen do the hand stamped letters and keep them perfectly aligned and kerned? Also are they struck with a lead hammer and how do they prevent a ghost mark from punch bounce?

Thanks,

Roger

cowboy_silversmith · Oct 22, 2012

Roger,

We used a divider to scribe a line for the lettering and a rule for the centering line.
With practice, a guy would learn the feel of how hard to strike the stamp so that it
was neither too shallow or too deep. The kerning was all done by eye and with gained
experience over time. Some guys were better at it than others.If there were a ghost
from a double strike, it was usually so faint that once the enamel was ground off, the
grinding action would also grind away the ghost mark. Then the subsequent polishing
steps would take care of the rest. Thehammer I used was just a small ball peen hammer.
Don't recall its weight. Then a planishing hammer was used for the backside to create a
shelf or undercut by pushing the metal back into itself. Care was taken that we hit the
metal flush so that there were no hammer scars left behind. Then re-introduce the letter
stamp dies to give the nowslightly deformed lettering their original straight crisp lines.

sandmanbrian · Oct 29, 2012

Brian did you get an answer yet ?

***************************************************

Brian Marshall said:
I just looked closer...

(One should always put glasses on before committing to something that may be wrong into a post that may embarrass the hell out of you

It doesn't look crisp enough to be struck. Something doesn't "feel" right.

Usually these things are in my hand and I can tell immediately by weight what they are made of.

What is the material it is made of? That will tell me/us if I was dead wrong...

Does It just have the Ed Jones mark?

I just called a friend at the Sheriffs Dept to tell me who this might have been made for.

Brian

sandmanbrian · Nov 2, 2012

Marrinan said:
In looking at he piece could it be a stamping from a warn die?- Fred

Many early Law Enforcement shields were polished over the years and resulted in acquired wear patterns. A few were almost polished flat and have to be viewed fron the rear to make out what the front once said. So wear patterns are one method of dating and verifying old handmade badges.. Even the leather rubbing the wallet badges show high points of wear on the newer Police badges.

Brian ............................

silverchip · Nov 2, 2012

As far as I know Ed Jones did this and it would be correct to assume the badge is die struck but the lettering could be hand cut .Bob Schaezlein use to do this lettering and enameling if someone brought it to him.I remember him showing me one that he was working on when I visited his shop many years ago.

Thoughts on this hand engraved Sherrif badge

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