Randy Hayes
Member
Is it recommended that inside ring engraving is done with a 90 (square) that has been heated and bent? If so, how can this graver be sharpened on the power hone if it won't fit the dual angle sharpening fixture?
Sharpening inside ring graver
- Thread starter Randy Hayes
- Start date
Randy: I use a regular (straight) square graver and normal flat graver for engraving inside of rings. I have a bent graver which allows me to cut horizontally inside rings, but I only use it to put a dash between dates or cross at T, etc. You can make one however you wish (mine came from a French set of gravers I bought 25 years ago), and hopefully someone can help you with the heating and bending part. As for sharpening, you'll likely have to hand sharpen. / ~Sam
Randy Hayes
Member
Thanks for your help. I've been reading a thread on tempering, in case it comes down to it. I believe I remember you commenting on your sharpening video that you prefer to cut script with a flat. I'd be interested in learning which situations call for a flat and which call for a square when you're cutting script.
I use a square to cut the hairlines and a flat to cut wide parts (sometimes called 'shade strokes') of the letters. For microscript lettering I usually do everything with a square.
Randy Hayes
Member
Thanks for your help Sam.
-Randy
-Randy
Tom Curran
Elite Cafe Member
Sam, you are such a show-off. Micro script indeed!
Maybe I'm just expressing my jealousy?
That's very small, and very clean.
Maybe I'm just expressing my jealousy?
That's very small, and very clean.
Steece
Member
Hi Randy,
I do a lot of inside ring engraving and I also use a flat and square graver to make most of my cuts. I use a lift of 15-20 degrees on both. To make the horizontal cuts Sam was talking about I purchased a graver from Edward C. Muller (phone 718-881-7270)that was already bent. Buy item # M109-3 and M109-2.... one of these should work well for you. You will have to grind it down a good bit and sharpen it at a different angle than it was intended for but it works very well for me. Bending, hardening and tempering is not an easy operation. You can spend all day on it and still have nothing useable. If you need a picture of the bent graver to look at let me know and I will post a picture.
Steece
I do a lot of inside ring engraving and I also use a flat and square graver to make most of my cuts. I use a lift of 15-20 degrees on both. To make the horizontal cuts Sam was talking about I purchased a graver from Edward C. Muller (phone 718-881-7270)that was already bent. Buy item # M109-3 and M109-2.... one of these should work well for you. You will have to grind it down a good bit and sharpen it at a different angle than it was intended for but it works very well for me. Bending, hardening and tempering is not an easy operation. You can spend all day on it and still have nothing useable. If you need a picture of the bent graver to look at let me know and I will post a picture.
Steece
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Steece
I know nothing about inside ring engraving but that is a really nice web site you have there. Beautiful illustrations on it and quite a bit to learn just reading through it.
Cheers
Andrew
I know nothing about inside ring engraving but that is a really nice web site you have there. Beautiful illustrations on it and quite a bit to learn just reading through it.
Cheers
Andrew
Tom: Glad you like it. As silly as it seems, exercises like that are really good for developing control.
Steece: Thanks for your input. I've added your post to the tips & tricks archive. A photo of your graver would be nice if it's not too much trouble.
I agree that heating and bending can be a chore and is to be avoided if possible. My bent graver isn't very hard and is probably just tool steel as opposed to high speed steel. I can live with this since I only use it to cut dashes, etc. in precious metals. I wouldn't mind having a better one if one exists.
I find that this bent graver feels really springy in my handpiece. Does yours feel that way as well? / Sam
Steece: Thanks for your input. I've added your post to the tips & tricks archive. A photo of your graver would be nice if it's not too much trouble.
I agree that heating and bending can be a chore and is to be avoided if possible. My bent graver isn't very hard and is probably just tool steel as opposed to high speed steel. I can live with this since I only use it to cut dashes, etc. in precious metals. I wouldn't mind having a better one if one exists.
I find that this bent graver feels really springy in my handpiece. Does yours feel that way as well? / Sam
tempering tool steel
tempering tool steel is done exactly like engraving, practice, practice, and more practice. get a few junk drill bits or other high carbon steel pieces. anneal them- heat to cherry red and let cool slowly. once cool. the parts will be soft and you can shape them easily. now re-harden them- heat at least the working tip to cherry red and quench in water or oil.
polish off dark fire scale with grit paper till tool is fairly shiney.
reheat tool shaft about in the middle, use gentle heat. watch color band travel up the tool. when a straw or pale straw color gets near the tip, the tool will be at the correct level of hardness/ toughness and quench in the water or oil. this really is very simple to do after you do it 1 or 2 times, you'll be happy you learned to do it.
this should post in the tip section.
tempering tool steel is done exactly like engraving, practice, practice, and more practice. get a few junk drill bits or other high carbon steel pieces. anneal them- heat to cherry red and let cool slowly. once cool. the parts will be soft and you can shape them easily. now re-harden them- heat at least the working tip to cherry red and quench in water or oil.
polish off dark fire scale with grit paper till tool is fairly shiney.
reheat tool shaft about in the middle, use gentle heat. watch color band travel up the tool. when a straw or pale straw color gets near the tip, the tool will be at the correct level of hardness/ toughness and quench in the water or oil. this really is very simple to do after you do it 1 or 2 times, you'll be happy you learned to do it.
this should post in the tip section.Randy Hayes
Member
Monk, can I use an acetylene blow torch for each step of that process? I used to try my best to temper my gravers about 9-10 years ago using a blow torch and motor oil, but it was always a shot in the dark for me. I had read all about "pale straw" and so forth in my black-and-white engraver's manual, but didn't have a clue what I was looking for, or how long it took the steel to reach that color. Still don't, but I know it would be good to learn.
By the way everyone, I also called GRS, and my salesman said that they have some "serpentine," "spoon," and other shaped gravers for sale that aren't advertised on the website. Said they were leftovers from a class I believe. $6-8 bucks a piece seemed very reasonable.
By the way everyone, I also called GRS, and my salesman said that they have some "serpentine," "spoon," and other shaped gravers for sale that aren't advertised on the website. Said they were leftovers from a class I believe. $6-8 bucks a piece seemed very reasonable.
KSnyder
Elite Cafe Member
here is how I do it, works every time, no dark secret to hardening & tempering.
select the graver & figure out how you want it bent.
flat duck bill pliers or even regular pliers work ok.
for a small piece of steel propane will work, heat to cherry red , (looks more orangey red to me) hold the heat for a couple seconds 10 or so. You can also tell if its hot enough if a magnet wont stick to it.Bend to desired angle.
quench in 10-30w motor oil, water can and does cause cracks.
once cool , run a file over it, if its hard the file wont cut but slip.
emory off the fire scale so you can see color in good light, (not fluorescent).
couple ways you can temper (soften so u can use it).
get a tuna can full of play(fine) sand & place on burner of a gas stove and place graver on top of sand, watch for the color to come up, (this takes a while) very pale straw color.remove from heat. let air cool. you're done.
place a heavier piece of steel in a vise, lay polished graver on top, heat from bottom w/ propane & watch for the same straw color. Remove from steel and let air cool, you're done.
for cutting softer metals even if you go past pale straw color it will still be plenty hard & work quite well.
sharpen er' up & go to cuttin'.
I been usin' this method for about 30 yrs. without fail.
there are other ways to achieve this (hardening & tempering) however there is less mess & more chance of success with the above method imho.
hope this helps some.
Kent
select the graver & figure out how you want it bent.
flat duck bill pliers or even regular pliers work ok.
for a small piece of steel propane will work, heat to cherry red , (looks more orangey red to me) hold the heat for a couple seconds 10 or so. You can also tell if its hot enough if a magnet wont stick to it.Bend to desired angle.
quench in 10-30w motor oil, water can and does cause cracks.
once cool , run a file over it, if its hard the file wont cut but slip.
emory off the fire scale so you can see color in good light, (not fluorescent).
couple ways you can temper (soften so u can use it).
get a tuna can full of play(fine) sand & place on burner of a gas stove and place graver on top of sand, watch for the color to come up, (this takes a while) very pale straw color.remove from heat. let air cool. you're done.
place a heavier piece of steel in a vise, lay polished graver on top, heat from bottom w/ propane & watch for the same straw color. Remove from steel and let air cool, you're done.
for cutting softer metals even if you go past pale straw color it will still be plenty hard & work quite well.
sharpen er' up & go to cuttin'.
I been usin' this method for about 30 yrs. without fail.
there are other ways to achieve this (hardening & tempering) however there is less mess & more chance of success with the above method imho.
hope this helps some.
Kent
pierre
Elite Cafe Member
dear Ksnider we do exactly the same at Liège's school but,in this particular case (bent tool) you have to reheat the back part in blue because this place must be elastic (that's why Sam feel his tool springy) you have to reach the pale straw color only on 10mm where you will cut with the tool. To obtain this, you just have to heat the back and see until the point became pale straw. at this moment, the back will be probably already white but the center will be blue and the point at good color,( the heat go slowly from the heating to te point) don't heat directly on the point.You can use a rapid steel, when it's blue it' s elastic and can't break under the pressure. and finally don't forget to have a polish mirror before the quench the steel will be really more resistant after and will be not present cracks.
sincerly P Dôme
sincerly P Dôme
KSnyder
Elite Cafe Member
Pierre, yes I agree with you. The back end needs to be softer so it wont crack when stressed with cutting.
Royal blue is about right.
I was intent on getting the method right I forgot the application.
Anyway, that's what this forum is all about.
Kent
Royal blue is about right.
I was intent on getting the method right I forgot the application.
Anyway, that's what this forum is all about.
Kent
Steece
Member
Sam,
I made a bent graver the old time way a while back....to make it easy to bend the thickness of the material has to be fairly thin. The graver I made did tend to be springy as I cut which was not good. The bent gravers from Muller are stout, hard steel and work perfect for the job.
For a vocational hand engraver it is just not practical or profitable to spend the time bending your own and still not getting a great product.
Most of the bent gravers are made to get down inside the bowel of a spoon etc. so I just rotate the graver to the left 45 degrees and shape and sharpen it for the inside ring application.
Hope this helps someone,
STeece
PS
Andrew: Thank you for taking the time to look at my website and for the compliment!
I made a bent graver the old time way a while back....to make it easy to bend the thickness of the material has to be fairly thin. The graver I made did tend to be springy as I cut which was not good. The bent gravers from Muller are stout, hard steel and work perfect for the job.
For a vocational hand engraver it is just not practical or profitable to spend the time bending your own and still not getting a great product.
Most of the bent gravers are made to get down inside the bowel of a spoon etc. so I just rotate the graver to the left 45 degrees and shape and sharpen it for the inside ring application.
Hope this helps someone,
STeece
PS
Andrew: Thank you for taking the time to look at my website and for the compliment!
Gil
Member
Randy,
I believe the bent graver which Sam mentioned is the "EFB" inside ring graver. I think it is still available from Gesswein or Rio Grande. It is only tool steel; however it is already bent, hardened and tempered. You don't need the special handle if you are using GRS equipment. Snap the shank of the tool (it is rather long from the maker) to a length to suit your comfort, then grind it to fit in a quick change holder.
The graver is bent down and to the right and then parallel th the shank, so you can use a power hone. Just sharpen it to a 90 degree square or whatever you prefer.
I agree with Sam about using a straight square and flat graver for everything except dashes and horizontal lines. If you use a square tool for the job, I've found it advisable to slightly round of the edges of the shank to avoid scarring the edges of the ring.
All the best,
Gil
I believe the bent graver which Sam mentioned is the "EFB" inside ring graver. I think it is still available from Gesswein or Rio Grande. It is only tool steel; however it is already bent, hardened and tempered. You don't need the special handle if you are using GRS equipment. Snap the shank of the tool (it is rather long from the maker) to a length to suit your comfort, then grind it to fit in a quick change holder.
The graver is bent down and to the right and then parallel th the shank, so you can use a power hone. Just sharpen it to a 90 degree square or whatever you prefer.
I agree with Sam about using a straight square and flat graver for everything except dashes and horizontal lines. If you use a square tool for the job, I've found it advisable to slightly round of the edges of the shank to avoid scarring the edges of the ring.
All the best,
Gil
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