getting new pro set up for engraving and setting

vbj

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hello,
loving all the tips,tricks and personalities on here. I have decided it's time to bite the bullet, and get properly set up with a powered graver and the rest. Im still decididng between Lindsay palm, or grs, but the main decisions are as follows.
the scope- looking at meiji EMZ-5 on acrobat, but would like to have the option to film through a trinocular viewer. having trouble finding the equivalent model, and tri's can be a bit confusing, with some models only having two eye holes avail at a time, even if equipped with three. Any guidance would be appreciated, before it all gets too hard, and i just get the emz-5 . Im happy to let any local advisors visit and use it to film if I get a good scope to film from :biggrin: (Im in Sydney, Australia BTW).
Next point of confusion is the compressor. I want a quiet one, Im using it at home to start, and at night. Apparently there's a good sil-air, but it's $3000, and id refer to keep it under $2k if possible. (more money for the fun stuff). I can't find any local distributors for the super quiet brands, but I'll continue looking on ebay etc.
Last major issue is with the GRS power hone. I've read what I could find about it, but Im unsure which set up I need to create gravers from square stock. In fact, ive been on a few forums, and they're all very useful, like this one, but it's hard to find sections anywhere that are a good outline of options for setting up .
thanks for reading this long post!
Victoria
 

Tira

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Victoria, I'm not sure from your post if you want a trinoch or are just thinking about one. If you want one then I would suggest trying to see one before you buy. They tend to be a bit darker than the binocular versions of the same scope. It has to do with the light being split differently to accommodate the "tri noch" vision issues. A tri-noch that only has 2 eye openings can be used to film, but then you have to engrave with only one eye because the other eye will be where the camera sits. If you only want still pictures that is not an issue, but if you want to film what you are doing it is a huge issue. A trinoch that has the third lens/eye/hole will allow you to fully see with both eyes while filming simultaneously. It will really depend on what you are planning to do as to which type you will need. The trinoch versions are also more pricey which I'm sure you have already seen.

The compressor is an issue for everyone. If you can get away with putting it somewhere that is not close to you (in a basement, garage, etc.) and running a line to where you are then the noise isn't as big a deal. If you are in an apartment or close to people then you will definitely need one that is on the quieter spectrum.

As for the power hone, either the dual angle fixture or the quick change one will both be able to make gravers from square stock (or any other kind of stock for that matter). It just depends on whether or not you want to make use of the collet system (on the quick change one) or not. I have both and use both. Either will allow you to make any type of graver you desire. Lindsay has a template system that allows you to make specific gravers, but you can't deviate from the specific geometry of each template.
 

vbj

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Thanks Tina, for such a considered and prompt answer!

Hard to try any scopes in sydney, let alone tri, but I'll see if anyone else has local tips.
Cant have any noise, so looking for quiet models of compressors under $2000, if anyone can suggest some.
I'll Look into the hone options you've mentioned more. Planning to get some Lindsay templates too,
Thanks very much, Victoria
 

GTJC460

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The Silaire 50-24 that Lindsay and GRS both sell is awesome. You can't beat this compressor.

As for sharpening fixtures, I have all of them. I personally find myself using the GRS original fixture most. It's quick and easy for sharpening square, flats, knife, round and onglette gravers. Fir jewelry engraving and stone setting this is really all you need.
 

Marrinan

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For the hone you might want to consider Tom White's variable speed hone. www.twdesignshone.com I personally use the GRS and have since 82 and it works great but the ability to rough out gravers on the hone as apposed to a bench grinder is very appealing. I am also impressed with the units adaptability to various heights to use what ever fixture/template setup you want. Fred
 

oiseau metal arts

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suggestion on compressors...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Silentaire-...475?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e701cfb8b

i used one of these for about 6 years to run my gravermach. and since the lindsay seems to use less air than the grs systems itll do great for that too. ive not tried the new en-set, but am sure itll work there too.

you do need to pay attention to over heating if you are goiung to be running this thing 6-12hrs straight.
 

Christian DeCamillis

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The Enset will run on one of these. http://www.harborfreight.com/1-5-hp-58-psi-compressor-and-airbrush-kit-95630.html If you spend a few more dollars you can get a nice airbrush compressor with a tank. When you use the one from harbour freight it runs when you are pushing the pedal and stops when you are not. There is no air being used unless the Enset is in use. We have changed the valve of the unit and it now works on pressure between 30 and 60psi. The power of the unit has also been increased by 30 percent or more. Here is a link http://www.engraver.com/

I would also consider the new Leica scope on that sire. It has a tremendous depth of field which means far less refocusing every time you change position . This will save time and especially for setting. There are a couple of other fixtures there that stone setters are finding very useful for today s setting work. One is the RinGenie and the other is the Orbital Ring Fixture.

If you want a set up that meets todays challenges in setting I would consider these tools as well as the ones you are considering now.

Chris
 

Roger Bleile

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Victoria,

If you use a Lindsay Airgraver you can operate it from a Co2 bottle which I did for some time before I got a compressor. My compressor has a 15 gallon tank. It is noisy to run. What I do is fill up the tank then turn off the automatic refill switch so it doesn't keep kicking on unexpectedly. With the Lindsay PC I can operate the Airgraver for about 12 hours or more before I turn the compressor back on to refill the tank. It only takes a few minutes for the tank to refill. I think I paid about $160.00USD for the compressor when new.

Regards,
Roger
 

Andrew Biggs

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Hi Victoria

I wouldn't recommend an airbrush compressor. You can certainly buy them readily and cheap enough in Sydney from just about any craft shop.............but there are two things about it. They will eventually drive you insane like Chinese water torture and they suffer under constant use so are inclined to clap out easily. The small airbrush compressors with a tank are also not up to much because the tank normally empties within seconds of constant use. All they were ever built for was portability and quick small jobs over short periods of time. ..............keep looking around. If your budget is under $2K (AUD) you should be able to find something really good.

With your exchange rate running dollar for dollar against the Greenback then it would be seriously worth getting something out of the USA and biting the bullet on the freight side of things.

The power hone and dual angle fixture etc you should be able to check out at the HOJ Sydney branch. At least that way you get to see and play with it hands on which is a bit better than reading about it.

Cheers
Andrew
 

vbj

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well thank you all for kindly responding:) . I heard this was a friendly place, but didn't expect much response for a boring line of questions you've all heard a hundred times before . I'm delighted to see what i think of as a small niche of jewellery, is actually a pretty busy community. Ill research the various options you've suggested, and I GUESS IM LOOKING FOR AROUND 1/2 HP (Sorry caps), to give the compressor enough grunt. The zeiss scope tip was interesting too- seems very reasonable for a zeiss. Anyone else vouch for it over the Meiji?
One question i forgot to mention was that I'm using the tool for setting as well as engraving, so the Lindsay is good for that too isn't it? Most of the focus on his promo material is of course on engraving, so hard to find anything much about it being used for setting, but I don't see why not.
thanks again, Victoria
 

mrthe

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Hi vbj,the lindsay for stone setting work well like the others systems,i make jewellery and engraving,i run two lindsay systems ,a Palm control and a foot control airgraver connected inline to only one airbrush compressor with a 3 liter thank like this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Powerful-AI...959?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec016a077
Like Andrew say maybe is not the best setup because every 30 minutes the tank have to recharge for 10-15 seconds but is only 50 db of rumors,for me to the moment that i will can buy something better ( heare in spanish are very expensive) work very well i have use it for over 18 months and i had no problems,the noise is very low and for me is not a great problem.........but i' m shure that in the future i will go to a better one.
 

Christian DeCamillis

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Victoria,

The Enset was designed to work well with stone setting. I have 41 years of experience at the jewelers bench. When I designed the system the stone setting aspect was considered as much as the engraving. Hammering was also a big factor in the final design. Here is a link to 2 videos showing the Enset being used for setting system http://www.engraver.com/enset-hand-engraving-system/

As far as the airbrush compressor is concerned I would have to disagree with many of the statements when it comes to the Enset. The noise factor of the compressor I showed is virtually silent. The compressor only runs when you are actually using the machine. so it isn't constant because the Enset doesn't use any bleed air. Air consumption is only happening when the system is being used. The cfm of it is 0.02 at the fastest stroke speed. If you added a tank depending on the size of it it would run for quite some time before the compressor would start again. If Andrew is referring to the GRS system then what he says is true in fact it wouldn't work on that system at all. It has bleed air at all times running or not and it says on their site it uses 1.4 cfm .

I don't know whether the Lindsay system would work with this. It's air consumption is very low as well. It could be Andrew could answer this question from experience since he uses or did use the Lindsay system.

There is a thread here about the scope in which a user of that new Leica system gives there review. Here is the link it is at the bottom of the page http://www.engraverscafe.com/showthread.php?12293-need-help-with-microscope-issues/page2
 

Glenn

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Chris it is great to hear from you. I've missed your input on many threads that I've read here.
Thanks, Glenn
 

bram ramon

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Hi Victoria

I wouldn't recommend an airbrush compressor. You can certainly buy them readily and cheap enough in Sydney from just about any craft shop.............but there are two things about it. They will eventually drive you insane like Chinese water torture and they suffer under constant use so are inclined to clap out easily. The small airbrush compressors with a tank are also not up to much because the tank normally empties within seconds of constant use. All they were ever built for was portability and quick small jobs over short periods of time. ..............keep looking around. If your budget is under $2K (AUD) you should be able to find something really good.

With your exchange rate running dollar for dollar against the Greenback then it would be seriously worth getting something out of the USA and biting the bullet on the freight side of things.

The power hone and dual angle fixture etc you should be able to check out at the HOJ Sydney branch. At least that way you get to see and play with it hands on which is a bit better than reading about it.

Cheers
Andrew


I can not agree on that, airbrush/membrane compressors are not bad at all. Of course there are better ones on the market. The only thing is this small compressor Chris showed will work for the En-Set and the airgraver because booth of these systems are really air efficient. The Grs system consumes much air and is less efficient. I have a PC airgraver good but a bit overpriced, when i would choose know i would go for the En-Set.
 

mrthe

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Bram this type of compressors are not bad At all, shure, but like in all the type of tools, if you can is better buy a good one than a regular that you have to upgrade in the future because in this way you will spent more money.
I agree with Andrew for this reason ,that the best advice ,if you can, is buy something better than a airbrush compressor.
Personally i think that a airbrush compressor without tank is absolutly to avoid, for work can work , true, if i blow in my PC tube the piston work too and maybe i will able to engrave some line, but have a compressor like this in continuos working running i don't know how will be long his life.
 
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Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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I'm using the En Set too, I will try using a "refrigerator engine" to run it. I could also connect that to an air tank. Sure it will be silent and able to run fur ours and years.

And I do not agree about the airbrush compressor All they were ever built for was portability and quick small jobs over short periods of time . Sure airbrushing is not a short time job!

The other thing is that GRS warns you in the manual, only using a oil-less compressor, I'm not saying you have to, but could be important when making your choice.

arnaud
 

Andrew Biggs

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Hi Arnaud

There are many types of airbrushing jobs. Some small and some very large. Like anything, the more you did it the quicker you got at doing it.

Back in the day, before Photoshop and digital printers it was of course about the only way do get that soft edge look. Hence people still refer to models in magazines being airbrushed even though those days are long gone.

One of the main problems with the small airbrush compressors was that with continual use they heated up quite badly which caused moisture in the lines. What that basically meant was that you would be working away and all of a sudden big blobs of moisture would spray all over the area you were working on. And that was a real pain in the backside because you had to go back and touch up...................moisture traps all over the place never seemed to solve the problem although they went a certain way to alleviating the problem but never cured it.

Also, after a time the constant chug,chug,chug of the compressor could drive you quietly nuts over several hours. Naturally some people were more sensitive to it than others. After constant use, over long periods of time, they seemed to get noisier.

So we tended to try and use the bigger compressors where we could in the workshop and take the smaller, more portable airbrush compressors out to jobs where a big compressor would reach without having hoses from here to Africa. Alternatively if you just had a quick job then the smaller airbrush compressors were ideal.

You don't see a lot of it around now which is a shame because it was fun to do. The digital era has effectively taken over. People like the Letterheads movements, custom car painters and artists still prefer the medium and keeping it alive which is great to see.

Cheers
Andrew
 

Christian DeCamillis

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No one would argue that the airbrush compressor is the best choice but since the original question stated that they need a quite air source and have a budget. it seems that it could be a cheaper alternative to buying a sil air or one of the silent air types. These compressors have many issues. One being heating up. and the result of that is moisture. You will have to empty the tank daily because they accumulate so much water. according to the mfg. you are suppose to change the oil every 40 hrs of operation. If you don't change it often then the heat will break it down and your lines will become contaminated with oil. Using a coelesing filter will help , but it won't stop it. the oil becomes a vapor and can eventually get past any filter or filters. It seems that you pay a very high price for such a finicky tool.

The Enset isn't effected by oil contamination to the degree of other systems. You don't have to clean the cylinder in fact it is lubricated. Of course using clean air is always the best but it's not as critical. When we were designing it i realized the environment it would be used in.Take a look at any goldsmiths bench, a spotless workplace is the exception instead of the rule. So it had to be rugged. In fact one of the demos we did in Basel was to drill a hole in the hose that goes into the handpiece. The tool still operates even with a hole in the line. I will make a video of that and post it.

Some of the testing I did involved putting debris from rubber wheels and small metal chips inside one of the cylinders and used it. It worked even like this. Then I decided to put oil directly into the line to the handpiece and run it. It ran fine but it made a mess. The other feature of the system is that at some point in time depending on your usage you can buy a new cylinder that can be easily exchanged for the old one and begin working as if the handpiece is brand new. the problem with replacing a piston and spring only in a cylinder is that there is wear on the bore and the compression will never be as it was when new. I would however still recommend to a professional engraver or stone setter to change there piston and spring once a year anyway. It's not expensive maintenance. With the Enset you just change the entire cylinder. It is a sealed unit. I never understood why people don't want to maintain a tool. This goes for any system that makes a living for you. The same people wouldn't drive there car without changing the oil.

So as for the original question. A system that doesn't require a large amount of air volume has the advantage of being able to use alternative air sources. Yes you can run the enset on co2 if you want to. The bottom line is this if a quite compressor isn't needed then it really doesn't matter how much air a system uses. But the reason it was of concern for the Enset is because it seems more and more people are working in confined spaces or spaces where noise is a factor.
Chris
 

Andrew Biggs

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With any compressor you should empty it daily. That is standard practice and highly recommended, although most people only do it when they remember. Something I'm guilty of from time to time.

I've had my Jun-Air (which is very similar to the Silair} for about 7 years approx and changed the oil once and it chugs away very nicely. One very close engraver friend hasn't changed the oil since he brought his Silair many years ago (long before I brought my compressor) and it still functions perfectly. I seriously dobt if anyone has ever changed the oil every 40 hours of use.

My lines have never become contaminated past the oil coalescing filter either. So they are not expensive and finicky................they are just expensive. But, if you can afford it, well worth the money :)

Cheers
Andrew
 

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