An email I received today

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mitch

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you show me crappy engraving done by a sanctimonious Neo-Luddite purist using strictly traditional 'hand' tools and i'll show you crappy engraving.

as a side note, Sam is one of the dwindling few who CAN hold his own with a push burin or H&C (or at least he used to). i used to be passable at it for restoration purposes, but was always very slow- no way could i have made a steady living that way.
 

Barry Lee Hands

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It is really a question of productivity. The air impact hand piece in conjunction with a modern scope and sharpening hone and fixture allows the worker to be more productive. Assuming the work is properly marketed this should allow increased capital formation.
If you are just talking about art, technique or equipment has little bearing.
 

Crazy Horse

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Whenever I hear someone say something along those lines I tell them if Michael Angelo had pnumatic tools and high speed bits the world would be enjoying many, many more of his beautiful creations.

When all is said and done, isn't it the end product that speaks for itself?
 

Tira

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Well said, Crazy Horse. Why is it that most people desire the newest in many things - medical care for one - yet resist the notion of innovation and technology in this particular art? I certainly wouldn't want my limb amputated by a guy whose only equipment consists of a rope, a saw, and a bottle of whisky - so why do we have to stay stagnant and not evolve in this? I can't think of any other topic that has so much resistance to evolution.
 

mrthe

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if i use a micromotor, or a oxidric soldering machine or a puk i can't call my jewellery hand made ? will be something like " power assisted hand made jewellery" maybe?
All the Arts have an technologic evolution ,all in our life too, in this moment we are use it to exchange in a very fast way our things and knowledges , from every corner of the world in the same place, a forum, in other way maybe i had needed my messenger pigeon


but i think that is not the best way in 2012, funny maybe....
 

Doc Mark

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Oh Sam, you little "pot stirring", instigator you! You probably sent that e-mail to yourself just to get us all riled up again. He, he, he.

Mike, I do appreciate your zeal, and even though we will never agree on this point, I would still love to see some of your Hand Engraving. I searched the gallery and could find no postings of your work. Please, what type of engraving do you do? Knives, firearms, jewelry?
 

Mike Fennell

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The great debate continues. I think Sam, Sam and Barry said it best.

I like antique tools, but believe that any artist should use whatever works, just as all professions do. I wouldn't want my dentist to use a brace-and-bit, but whatever the method, it is the result that counts.

Some engravers are very fast with hammer and chisel and push-burin, but most are mere mortals. If size matters, so does speed and efficiency.

Mike Fennell
 
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It's a long post! Sorry!

Sam,

You are spot on. The traditional methods need to be taught and maintained.

As I'm sure most of you are tired of hearing, I'm a blacksmith. Blacksmithing nearly died out 50 years ago. The craft had to evolve from being an everyday neccesity to an art form in order to survive.

There were a few old blacksmiths around who made it their mission in life to teach traditional methods. Francis Whitaker is one of the more well known smiths who did that very thing up until he died at age 82.

Many of the techniques known to blacksmiths in times past have been lost. The current status is that we have had to recreate the methods that we "believe" were used. Tool marks and archaeological evidence is all we have to go on. The iron work produced today is mostly indistinguishable from that produced in the past. We don't know if some of the methods are what were used in the past. But we believe we have it right.

It would be a tragedy for that to happen to engraving.

For those who choose the traditional route I am very respectful of their abilities and work ethic.

They have chosen a hard path and should be commended for their passion to the Art.

Those are the folks who should do everything they can to teach new students those traditional techniques.

I would say rather than complain that the Art is being diluted it is the task of those who use purely traditional to make sure it's not lost.

Francis retired from full time blacksmithing in Aspen, CO when he was 65 if I remember right. He devoted the rest of his life to passing on traditional methods to his students. He would not tolerate any modern methods in his classes. That was not his mission.

I'm new enough at this that I'm not sure if there are people like him in the engraving world. I would bet there are.

Now for a little more self exposure on the internet. I only have one arm, I use the Gravermach because I can't use a hammer and chisel which would be my preference.

I recently attended a American Longrifle engraving class at Western Kentucky University that is put on by the NMLRA in association with the University. My instructor was Mark Silver. He allowed me to use the air graver because he realized that was the only way for me to learn.

He did however insist that my results look like the traditional engraving examples he presented to the class. The traditional designs and the attention to authenticity were his primary goals. He insisted on hand sharpening of the gravers even though it was a rough couple of days while the students learned that skill. I am very happy to have been in his class. He is very skilled rifle builder.

As to how I blacksmith, I always make sure that the ironwork I make meets the standards of ironwork forged in the traditional manner if that is the preference of the person receiving the results of my labor.

I use a power hammer and a treadle hammer. Oddly enough those are documented traditional methods. Both have been known and used by blacksmiths for a very long time.

So, to sum up.

It doesn't matter where the impact that drives the graver comes from as others have stated.

Regards,

Matt
 

Red Green

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Traditional, the word is throw around without any qualification by skill orientated craftspeople incessantly. No matter what historical craft they are perusing, no matter when or where it came from its 'traditional' and is the gold standard to them. Human history is fairly long, we have been tool makers and users for much of that history, tradition started on the first day of man. If you wish to speak of the traditional methods of the past it first must be qualified as to what people in what years, the word is meaningless without it.

Bob
 

Crazy Horse

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I'm thankful for the traditionalists, the fundamentalists, and for basic tools. But most of all I'm most thankful for the electric light. I hate the smell of burning candles. ;~)
 

Weldon47

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You know, in giving this more serious thought (pretty rare for me), I have come to this conclusion:

There will always be those who want to make themselves look better by making others look bad.
The one word definition is: Jealousy!

As a (99.9%) hammer & chisel engraver, I am all for keeping the old-world traditions alive however, I know how hard it is to do and the level of dedication required to learn this method. (Speaking of firearms engraving here).

I applaud the renaissance we are now in, which in my opinion, has been largely brought on by the invention and subsequent application of air-powered engraving tooling. I believe we are seeing, today, some of the best engraving ever & much of it from the USA where air tooling is the predominant method in use. To spend time arguing over what method is best is an absolute waste of energy!
Regardless of your tool choice, Your mission should be this: to be the very best that you can be, do the very best work that you can do and, enjoy what you are doing.
While there may be a few that do, most clients don't care how it was done, they care about how it looks and how much it costs....finally....you will be judged on how the work stands the test of time, not on how it was done!
Barry Lee makes a great point in his statement about time saving. If you are a working engraver, trying to make a living, easier and quicker is better (provided there is no change in quality).

My two cents worth,
Weldon
 

mrthe

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I agree with you Weldon I respect a lot who try to preserve ancient traditions ,i come from a country (Italy) in which we have great craftsmen who still work with traditional techniques,but i have to say that some friends,expecially newbies that have buy or that tryng a pneumatic engraver tool ever tell me the same after the first experience "I thought it was much easier engrave with these tools" and maybe the answer is yes is more easy than a push or H&C method,but the tool don't make all the work,only help you,is your hand that make the difference,the reality is that everyone can buy a pneumatic tool ,study H&C or push graver for years,but not everyone can will engrave as do Sam or some of other Master or very good engravers that we have in this forum,at the end I think what counts is the love for this Art and enjoy your work matter what tool or level you have or you will come to get in your life.
 
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Red Green

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Well, as a firm believer that the only real keyboard instrument is the harpsichord I must take exception. Those vulgar fortepianos will never have the traditional sound and clarity. They have ruined proper string keyboard music with this modern noise.;)

Bob
 

tundratrekers@mtaonline.n

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Sam A,

Why not change the Cafe logo to reflect the air tools as opposed to the push graver currently in use?
Was wondering about the FEGA logo also.
Seeing as its not a requirement to know how to use old school tools,or how to sharpen.

mike
 

Idaho Flint

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How will it look to the layman,to see two engravers in adjoining booths at a show.
One using manual tools,the other,power.
Yet both are claiming to be hand engraving.
Whats the person(s) to think,they will of course say the manual tools are true hand engraving.
mike

Mike

I disagree with what you are saying. I would say that one way is "manual engraving" and the other is "power assist engraving", but both are hand engraving.

Is not the hand being employed in both to control / position the tool being used to engrave the metal with?

Hand anything is when a person uses their hands to direct and mold the material that they are working in, into what they desire vs a machine that controls all the procession and molding of the work.

When someone makes a chair or table by hand, but uses a power saw to cut the tree into planks, and a electric drill to fasten the screws, would you call that machine made? I would not due to the personal aspect of the creation of the chair.

Just food for thought.

Mike
 
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