An email I received today

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Haraga.com

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Long before power assisted engraving became popular engraving consisted of mainly two techniques. There was the hammer and chisel and hand engraved. One used the hammer and one used only the hand to move the cutting tool. They are two types of engraving. Now it is popular to have air power to move the cutting tool. It is also a form of engraving. In summary, long before air power came along, hand engraving meant that you propelled the graver with only the hand. Somehow the term hand pushed was used to describe hand engraving. It would be nice to see an original name used to describe power assisted engraving. Remember that these are techniques are all under the umbrella of "engraving". As for myself, I don't care how it gets done and I wish I owned every fancy tool out there. As far as hand engraving, it's pure satisfaction when you get it right and utter disappointment when you don't.
 

Andrew Biggs

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Hi Mike

For the record

I did start with hammer and chisel and hand sharpening my own onglettes. All courtesy of James Meek's book The Art of Engraving. I even got pretty good at sharpening and my cuts with the HC weren't too bad in the end................They weren't the best either, in fact, far from it.

Starting this wonderful obsession in my late 40's...........All I can say is thank goodness for power tools and microscopes :)

Cheers
Andrew
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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I'm starting Hammer and Chisel now. Starting with something quite easy to make a cut, like the Power Assist hand pieces, helps a lot to do similar cuts with H&C. In my opinion that makes a lot of sense
Also sharpening by hand, to me it seems much easier now, that because I have been looking at my Power Hone sharpened gravers for three years now, so I know how the need to be.

arnaud
 

Weldon47

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"Many are now seemingly wanting me to "Qualify" myself/my point of view,by showing the work i do by manual tools"

Yep, Mike....,I guess I am!

Weldon
 
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JJ Roberts

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Like Andrew I got late start 32 years old wish I could have started as a teen ager like the Europeon's.Thank to James Meek and his his book on gun engraving witch open up the door for us here in the U.S.we able to get leg up started FEGA and sharing information plus the intnet being a big help for me because thats where clients and students find me. Latey I've been hearing alot about the onglette graver on both forums a graver when sharped correctly you can do wonders with,eithe with the H&C hand graver or power.What ever you chose H&C hand graver or power enjoy. J.J.
 

Sam

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Just that i feel the new engraver can so easily fall into the way of thinking that they need to have to spend a lot of money on tooling or be forever held back.

In my 14 years of teaching I've never heard a single student or engraver says they felt they would be FOREVER HELD BACK.

But lets be honest here.

Look at the FEGA logo, The Cafe logo,what do they have in common.

There is a FEGA engraver I know of,that said he NEVER learned hand sharpening.
He also told me i was wasting my time to learn the old way.
All this from a guy who studied through the NRA School.

So? What has that got to do with anything? LOL!

I said before,air gravers and turbines should replace or be added to the logos.
While your at it,add pantographs,and manual milling machines,etc..... As they ARE controlled by the hand,and meet all the criteria ,of the majority logic,of "hand".

Who put you in charge of deciding what should or should not go on FEGA or Cafe logos? If you're with the Logo Police then show your credentials.

Many are now seemingly wanting me to "Qualify" myself/my point of view,by showing the work i do by manual tools.

Well, you come here making baseless blanket statements about this and that and what we should or shouldn't do and how our logos should be designed. You are under no obligation to upload any photos of your work of course. That's entirely up to you. But I would certainly like to see any example of something you've engraved. I'm not looking to criticize your engraving or discredit you. I would just like to see some of you engraving, just like I'd like to see some of every member's engraving.

Ok, I have to work. Ciao!
 

mrthe

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I think that at the end of this discussion , or like in the post on sharpening syestems too, the most productive will be than those fellows that using traditional systems also teach or put tutorials on how to sharpen properly with the traditional method (some will say ,I know,if you want to learn it, go to a school,or take some classes, but not everyone has this opportunity and I think "thanks god!" in this forum is full of fellows who share their knowledges in exchange for nothing) so that the neophytes can get a true indication from is better on not too difficult use one system or another (Bram also defending hand sharpening system and we just gave an example of how to create a "by hand" templates), so it would come good tips and tricks on engraving traditional methods, I think when we want to preserve something the best way to do promulgate it and not just say it would be right or something essential to know
 
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DakotaDocMartin

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Red Green

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Like spitting into the wind......

Yes it is, why do you keep doing it? If you really want to evoke change you don't go about it like you are. If you want a clear message to new engravers on how to start inexpensively you will need to do more than point your fingers at others. If you have real workable ideas state them, accusations and innuendo serve no honest purpose. Why don't you stop telling us you know a better way and show us what you have to offer.

Bob
 

Marcus Hunt

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I didn't mean to imply there were no "hand"engravers out there Roger,but among the modern school of engravers,especially self taught,as i've seen on the forums anyway,are not able to use both types of tools.

Oh, I had to laugh at this one!!!! There are loads of us out there who have been professional engravers for many, many years who have used both types of tools. My father was the one who actually started the "modern school" of engraving back in the 60's getting away from the old, staid, game scene engraving and bringing, what was termed, photo-realism into it. He, almost single handedly brought a demand from gun collectors (mainly from your side of the pond in the beginning) for this kind of work and although some of the early stuff was done in a very commercial way demand for it is still high and you'll always be able to sell a Ken Hunt engraved gun. Others quickly caught on to the trend and we have gradually evolved into the engraving scene, and many different styles, we have today. My dad (and I) used hand tools until about 10 years ago and when my dad discovered GraverMax he was blown away by what it allowed him to achieve beyond hand pushing and h&c. He fully embraced air assistance and in no way ever thought it detracted from the term "hand engraving" and so did I.

I've said it before, all air assistance does is help a graver pass through metal, nothing more. There are good and bad hand engravers who manually push, who use h&c and who use air assistance. There is nothing magic about a pneumatic graver; if you can't cut a decent scroll or design properly a powered graver isn't going to do it for you any more than a manual one does.

Like Sam says Mike, if you feel that strongly about "hand tools" and the work they produce let's see some of yours. I'll dig out some of my old hand pushed photos and scan them when I have time (before the digital age I'm afraid, lol) and then will compare with a gun cut with an air graver. The latter engravings won't be that much different to the early ones (although I hope I've improved design wise over the years) but what will be different is that I don't have to put unnecessary pressure on my shoulder joint any more. Forcing a graver by hand through tough steel takes it's toll over the years. Can I still pick up a graver and hand push? Sure. Do I want to? Not often. I can now concentrate on what my graver tip is producing rather than keeping a graver moving by muscle power.

At the end of the day it's each to his own. Is a painter any less of an artist because he doesn't grind his own pigments to make into paint? No, nowadays he just goes and buys a tube.
 
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fjkratky

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Technology changes and people change procedures as it changes. I may be way off base, but if today's quality air tools existed back then I would hazard a guess the old masters would have used them. Skill not tools produce classic engraving. I am not qualified to give advice on how to engrave, but I know people who can hand push, use hammer and graver and use the modern stuff with equal fantastic results. Guess you use what you feel comfortable using. I guess I am not one to judge others by their choice of tools. Just think how much farther engraving has progressed thank to GRS, etc that gave the training and equipment to the masses. I guess work on your craft however you want to do it, and let the other guy do the same. Look at the end product and critique the art not the artists methods. If you can do it old school congratulations, I do not care to do it this way, I like my new school, this does not make me better or worse engraver, my poor engraving skills do that.
 

Dave London

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Well I was going to stay out of this ,however since TT wants to make a issue let's see some photos or is he going to talk the talk or walk the walk
Also I use my name and location not some screen name, grow a set TT
 
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BrianPowley

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In my 32 years as a "Professional Hand Engraving Artist", only about 3 customers asked what method I used.
I've had those H&C guys tell me to my face that "if you use air tools, you ain't really engraving". I just smile and let 'em have their moment.
I thoroughly enjoy living in their heads "rent free" every time they pick up a gun magazine and find me there.
 

tundratrekers@mtaonline.n

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You guys are so childish.

You guys have pulled apart everything i said,taken it out of context.

Read it by the letter,and not by the spirit in which it was said.

I have explained myself ,I believe.

Why do you keep making it personal.

This thread is about an ideal,an interpretation of a term,Hand engraving,and whether or not the term is being misused today,or not.

I have not attacked anyones engraving,good or bad,and i have not said i was better than anyone.

I have acknowledged the validity of ALL forms of tooling.

Even said I may own some myself one day.

Its like talking to children who don't really understand the language well enough to reason with on any more than a superficial level.

And when you get frustrated,you start attacking me,and I've seen it done here in the past.

I am highly surprised this hasn't been shut down and posts deleted.

But,apparently,you all have singled me out as the whipping boy, this time.


Like I said before,your overzealous defensiveness,and aggressiveness makes you look very immature,and its obvious your just upset that i actually posted

something HIGHLY controversial,yet TRUE.


Don't be a hater ,you too can learn to use manual tools,its not REALLY as hard as its made out to be.

The way you guys are treating me,what would make you think i would show you pics,or tell you where i live.


Remember, SAM started this thread,not me, but ,his intentions were/are obvious ,from the posts he has made.


Thats all right ,I forgive you all.
I also ask forgiveness if anyone feels that i have personally attacked them,it was totally unintended.

mike
 

Andrew Biggs

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Okay, I'm jumping in here as moderator.

Mike has his opinions as we all do. He has a right to his ideals and philosophy as we all do. We also have a right to express those opinions in a civilized manner as we have done. Sometimes it gets a bit heated but that is pretty much normal in any family. The trick is to learn to let it go.

14 pages and 137 posts is pretty good going by any standards of debate. I get the sense that no one is going to convert the other and we have hung, drawn and quartered this subject and beaten it to death several times over :)

I agree with Mike in that this is about an ideal, not our own individual levels of skill.

So I think we shall all have to agree to disagree................that is what makes the world go round.

We have other things to concentrate on and discuss...............lets face it, we all agree more with each other than disagree.

So before it starts really going down hill I suggest we all take a deep breath, have a group hug..........and let it go.

Cheers
Andrew
 
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