Newbie sharpening set up

mitch

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for the record, i think learning how to forge & heat-treat small tools is a valuable skill- i learned it myself many years ago, but have only used it a few times. however, in this age of readily available, high-quality manufactured gravers, especially square stock (primarily lathe bits), i would never demand that beginning students learn to do it before allowing them to start doing more 'fun' stuff. to place unreasonable hurdles before them smacks of petty cruelty. "When I was an apprentice, the master made us do it. Now it's your turn to suffer like we did." is an unacceptable attitude when it no longer makes any technical sense.

bram- i'm all for someone enduring a bit of "struggle" to achieve anything that is worthwhile. where we disagree is what one should reasonably be expected to struggle over. while you decry the modern ability and inclination to simply buy a tool instead of learning how to do something the 'old school' way, i (mostly) applaud it. to me, that frees people from a lot of largely uninteresting, uninspiring grunt work to spend more time focusing on the ART. i believe the main technical aspects of any artistic medium should be made as user-friendly as possible (how many painters grind & mix their own colors or make their own brushes, or even stretch their own canvas?). i want people who aspire to be great engravers to struggle to create the perfect scroll, the perfect leaf, the perfect layout, the perfect overall composition, and then struggle to cut it perfectly in metal. that is enough of a challenge for any man or woman in this busy world. if they do it with a pre-manufactured graver, sharpened with a fool-proof fixture and driven by a pneumatic machine, i don't care. i'm much less interested in what comes from their hands, than what comes from their minds, their hearts, and their souls.
 

Doc Mark

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Man, these arguments about "learning the basics" or getting the "solid fundamentals", take me back to the Dark Ages when I was still in Dental School. In our first years we learned all the laboratory techniques for waxing and casting crowns, etc. and spent a LOT of time learning how to wax and process dentures into acrylic. Now you must understand that even 40 years ago almost NO ONE ever did this work once they were out really practicing Dentistry! But, our professors KNEW that we must know these basics before we could send this type of work out to the Dental Laboratories where the work was done by professionals who did this day in, day out for a living! (That last line was written in Sarcastic Font) Yes we had to have some hands on experience in Lab techniques, if for no other reason than to know what was acceptable work and what wasn't. But did we have to continue this for four years?! When we had to polish the acrylic denture, it first needed to be rough finished with spoon shaped hand scrapers which we had to learn how to sharpen by hand (sound familiar). Even though in the "real world" all such work was done with fine, sharp large carbide rotary burs. It was just as Mitch said "When I was an apprentice, the master made us do it. Now it's your turn to suffer like we did." Just change the word "apprentice" to "dental student". It was nonsense then, and remains nonsense today. This is not to say that if someone has the time and inclination to learn certain esoteric techniques about any field, I say "Good for you Mate!" We truly need to keep engraving history alive. But, telling a newby that learning how to sharpen by hand is not only essential but best is disingenuous.

When I first learned how to carve Cameos in Italy, I was given only the basics on how to sharpen the hand gravers. For years I pushed these little buggers through the material and was blissfully unaware at how messed up they really were. When I got a power hone and Dual-Angle fixture I thought that I would try to resharpen some of my cameo gravers. Wow! What a difference that made! I just never realized how much easier a properly sharpened instrument would be to use. The operative words in the previous sentence are "properly sharpened". Someone in this thread said "you don't know, what you don't know." I totally agree. I didn't KNOW what a sharp graver should feel like so I didn't realize how I was hampering myself. And for this reason alone, I feel, that a newby CANNOT TEACH HIMSELF how to sharpen a graver by hand without a lot of luck. Not skill, luck! With the proper instructor, yes it can be done well. But if the student does not have a benchmark to go by (i.e. a properly pre-sharpened graver of each geometry) then he is wandering in the wilderness. Sure, he can get one to work, but will it be an efficient tool? Anyway, there is room in this big old world for many philosophies. All we can do in this situation is try to make the entry into the world of engraving a bit easier for the newcomer so that he or she stays around long enough to see if he/she has something to contribute to our chosen art form.
 

tundratrekers@mtaonline.n

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If you don't learn the basics,your only shorting yourself.

Wax on ,wax off.

When we started schooling,as children,we couldn't understand the value of an education.
Now i wish i had paid more attention in mathematics,but couldn't imagine a need for knowing,in the future.

The unwillingness to learn the"mundane",is one reason we no longer have apprenticeships for engravers in this country.
Everyone wants to start at the top.

Why then do we encourage others to draw ,draw,draw?
Arnaud and others have clearly shown that entire layouts can be generated without the need to draw a line on paper,we can just cut and paste.
We do it not just for the sake of drawing ,but because in the long run,it makes us better engravers,teaches us to see differently,same with all the other things we do that seem to be "unnecessary" to the end goal.
mike
 

Andrew Biggs

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Hi Mike

Sharpening and drawing are two different things..............sharpening is a mechanical process with the end game being a sharp tool to cut with.

Drawing is the artistic process that requires eye, hand coordination with a lot of skill and imagination combined with careful observation.

I can show someone how to sharpen a graver in 5 minutes with a jig and they will be able to do it for the rest of their lives without any hassles. It's a no brainer like washing dishes or making a cup of tea.

Teaching someone how to draw................now that takes a lifetime and depends solely on the talents, skill and imagination of the person doing it. If you can't draw with a pencil then a computer isn't going to help you very much.

Cheers
Andrew
 

Doc Mark

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"If you don't learn the basics,your only shorting yourself."

There are Basics (with a Capital B) and there are basics (lower case b). I can't agree more with your statement in general. But, when it comes to HAND sharpening gravers vs. modern, accurate tool positioning devices, I'm sorry I don't see that as "shorting yourself" at all. It has frankly become a rather inconsequential skill with the advent of the newer tooling. I do not mean this disrespectfully to those who had to learn the skill while learning the trade. It just isn't needed to create the final artistic product.
 

Sam

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There is a certain perceived eliteness that sharpening jigs and pneumatic handpieces has spoiled for some hand engravers. Now with a bit of practice anyone can sharpen a graver like a pro and learn to cut a pretty decent design in a few hours.
 

tundratrekers@mtaonline.n

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I don't understand why some body with the coordination to engrave,thinks its so much more difficult to sharpen a graver?

Andrew,is not sharpening a graver by hand,correctly,an art?
It requires and contains all of the elements you feel make up "art".
Why do people flee from every thing that seems to challenge them.

You are all right,in that the tool and the work and most customers don't care how it was done.
But,its the mind set that is the danger here.
You all say,by hand,where does it end?
The same goes for the mind set that "its inconsequential,and unnecessary ,mechanical process.
But thats what engraving is,a mechanical process,transfers are a mechanical process.
So i will expect all you nay sayers will be buying Leonardos machine as it can relieve you of having to do unnecessary ,Flat work.
Then he will make one to work in the round.
Then we can just do the design with computer,because drawing is obviously not needed any longer,with new technology.
Now we are in Mitch's realm,of the mind being the only relevant human element required .
Then they can wheel the machine into the room where we are on life support,because we found a machine to breathe for us,now we have totally freed the mind to concentrate on more necessary tasks,like design.
Where does it end?
Could you imagine a chef needing an jig to sharpen a knife?
Or a hunter carrying his Lansky sharpener on the hunt,as opposed to a rock or piece of sandpaper laid on the heel of your boot to sharpen.
When i prepare tungstens for welding,I have never seen or heard of a jig for that unnecessary task.
My Grandpa taught me to use a whet stone,before i was even in school,which one of you can teach their grandson to hand sharpen a knife?

This view of it being a burden to sharpen,is the very reasons we no longer have a viable manufacturing sector in america,because its to much of an inconvenience,or,somehow beneath us.
Now we have generations of people raised by this way of thinking,and i cant even hire a kid to help out,its beneath a red blooded american,to actually work at anything,if there is any other possible way to get around it.
I pity the young ones who may be influenced by some of you negative nellies.
I cant wait for someone to invent a machine that will pick my nose for me,its such an unnecessary ,mundane task,And i am almost done with my butt wiping machine,imagine all the time i will have saved for more important things,like hand sharpening gravers.


Why even buy a dual angle sharpener,lets just make disposable ,one time use gravers,presharpened from the manufacturer.
Seems we may have more in common with machinists these days,than artist/engravers.
mike
 
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Andrew Biggs

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Hi Mike

I use a dual angle sharpener for the same reason I use an electric drill instead of a hand drill. I just want the job done so I can get on with it.

I drive a car for the same reason.

I have no problem with people sharpening by hand. After all, some of them are quite good engravers :) :)

Each to his or her own. If you want to sharpen by hand then that's great.!!! At the end of the day it's just a pointy but of metal. It's what you do with it that counts.

Cheers
Andrew
 

Red Green

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IMHO sharpening is not an art, the act may be an art but the result is the removal of metal. It offers nothing to anyone but the operator. Skill is not art, it is result oriented work like cleaning a toilet. It may bring some romantic notion to you but it is not art. The challenge is engraving that's what we are trying to accomplish.
Every move we make is mechanical, it's not the movement it's the intent of the movement. Art is communication the only thing that hand sharpening communicates is your skill nothing more. I don't want to comment on your ranting, it is unnecessary, unhelpful and mostly untrue.

Bob
 

mrthe

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All the way draw with a computer is the same that make it in paper, ever i read the same, seems that people that use the computer like Arnaud or others doesn't making art, or not at the same level of importance,to can draw with computer you need the same knowledges of anatomy, proportions, grace, elegance, and you need the same talent and artistic skills that you need to make it in a paper, because if you don't have nothing of that your result will be more poor that you can make in a papet. is only a tool more, maybe more complex and technologic, but is only a tool , like the H&C a pneumatic or a power hone.
 

Doc Mark

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Hey Bobby! Have we scared you away yet? He. he, he. Bet you didn't expect this much "discussion" when you posted your initial question. I just checked your "join date" and see that you've been with us since 2008, so I guess you can take our ramblings. Have a great day and remember "keep you powder dry and your graver sharp". (No matter how it got sharpened)
 

KCSteve

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Could you imagine a chef needing an jig to sharpen a knife?
Or a hunter carrying his Lansky sharpener on the hunt,as opposed to a rock or piece of sandpaper laid on the heel of your boot to sharpen.

Actually professional chefs, at least around here, don't sharpen their own knives - I happen to know the guys who sharpen for pretty much every place in town. They use a lovely Italian setup that lets them sharpen a knife in one or two passes. Or, when learning, turn a Chef's knife into a paring knife with the same ease.

Most hunters either have no way to sharpen their knife in the field or carry a portable sharpening system. Many do carry simple whetstones but almost all of them are more likely to make their knife less able to cut if they try to 'sharpen' it. A simple carbide notch is best for those folks, as much as I dislike using them myself.

To carry this into a bit more relevance, if when sharpening a knife my angle varies by a bit - even by as much as 5 degrees between sharpenings, as long as I'm consistent within each sharpening I should have a good working edge. But when it comes to gravers a cut from a 90 is very different from a cut from an 85 or 95 degree graver. And if I'm at 90 on one side and 93 on the other...

I salute those who can sharpen by hand, but the only thing I even try to do by hand are onglettes.
 

Chujybear

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I vote on the jig/powerhone camp.
But I think it's good to have a handle on hand sharpening.
Cos (seriously) in the event of some sort of catastrophe where your jig is broken, and the power is out, you still want to be able carve
 

Red Green

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Catastrophe? At first I thought like 'the end of the world' type thing. I could just hear someone shouting "quick find an engraver that can hand sharpen, we need help!":confused:. But I see you mean a mundane old minor catastrophe, all I can say is good backups and plan ahead :). But tell me :thinking:, is there really such a thing as emergency engraving other than how a customer may feel?

Bob
 

diandwill

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C-Max gravers, and a diamond wheel plus ceramic or cast iron lap, sharpen (touch up) after using if needed, and you should be able to engrave for several days before needing to do anything else. I used a C-Max flat and bright cut over 60 pairs of earrings, in sterling, before it needed to be polished a little.
Of course, if you break a tip or corner, all thats out the window!

Actually, remembering, at that point my dog knocked my handpiece off my bench, snapping the flat right at the collet. Somewhere there is 1 1/2" of razor sharp graver on the floor of my shop, has to be under or behind something. Never have found it, and that was the best I have ever sharpened one!
 
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Bobby Branton

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You guys sound like a bunch of knifemakers.
When I started, we had to carry our anvils to the shop and back home again. It was uphill each way!!!

I DO agree that it it always good to learn the basic fundamentals of anything and then look for alternatives, especially when trying to save time.

I sure got an earful and will keep listening.
BB
 

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