Newbie sharpening set up

diandwill

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2008
Messages
864
Location
Eastern, Washington State
I think newbies should have to walk home on weekends, sleep in the corner while at work, sharpen by hand...with a blindfold on, do all the sweeping, cleaning etc. After all we ARE in the 19th century! Why take advantage of all those new-fangled tools that make the job easier, the learning quicker and the results better?
Wait, this is 2012! Nevermind!
 

bram ramon

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
238
Location
Liege Belgique
i've read all the posts in this thread, and everything since your last post twice and can't find anything funny in any of them. who or what do you find so "hilarious!"?

The thing i find hilarious is as an engraver it seems you are not allowed to have struggle nowadays for every struggle you can buy a tool. It's true nowadays people get faster into engraving if they pay of course but on the long turn they will have it a lot harder to reach the top.
If students after one ore two years don't make much progress in engraving/drawing they are told maybe you are not capable.That sounds hard but i believe if you make a student spend a lot of money and make her/him believe you can get there if you buy al this tools and follow this expensive courses, it's a lot harder. They may reach a certain level but if they wont to get higher they are peddling in the air because they miss there bases. If then they have to consider i miss the bases. That is hard.
I wan't call names but in Antwerp where i studied jewelry school TNA we had stone setting night classes and engraving classes it took us 4 months before the first stone was set. And believe me we had students who followed these expensive courses and came to our school empty handed, deceived because they missed the bases. When our teacher looked at all these tools he sad how can you steer a this space shuttle if hand don't now how to hold a simple push graver. It's hard but the hard reality is first learn to walk then start to run.
So i don't have a problem these tools and courses are available they can be a great deal for an engraver but only if you have the bases.
 

mitch

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
2,635
well, bram ramon, i think you & a lot of others are confusing the absolute necessity to understand HOW a graver point cuts metal and HOW the angles, facets, face & heel, tool metallurgy, subject metal, etc., affect the ability of the tool to do what you want, with the relatively simple, incidental mechanical process of how to grind & sharpen the point itself. i believe one must have a solid knowledge of how a graver works when cutting various lines, dots, or other specialty operations like stone-setting, but in an era of readily available, well-engineered, easy to use, precision fixtures, it is no longer necessary to master sharpening strictly by hand methods for the vast majority of engraving done today*.

there are PLENTY of challenges to be met & overcome on the way to becoming a competent engraver, it's hardly cheating, let alone blasphemous, to use a sharpening jig, and why stop there? why not require students learn forging, hardening, & tempering from rough tool stock instead of buying modern graver blanks of high-tech materials? where does it end?

on a larger 'point', the technological world moves on. expecting engravers to spend weeks or months mastering hand sharpening -while their engraving progress is hindered by poor, inconsistent tool geometry, is no different than expecting the average website designer to master computer software programming before being allowed to set up a site using a commonly available template (probably built by someone who DOES know programming). much of this attitude about requiring students to spend what we now consider inordinate, unreasonable amounts of time learning very basic skills before being allowed to progress in the art (i.e. Arnaud's reference to learning to play guitar) is a vestige of the ancient guilds & trade unions that did it largely to limit entry into their field and suppress competition. demanding that apprentices devote years to mastering the basics served several selfish purposes: 1) it provided a good supply of cheap grunt labor; 2) it dragged out the length of time before an apprentice could enter the market as a competitor; & 3) the years of uninspired drudge work further reduced potential competition by weeding out all but the most devoted or desperate. it pains me to think how many great artists the world has been denied over the centuries because their spirit & inspiration were discouraged & crushed by this small-minded, self-serving mentality.


*if one wants to learn genuine relief-sculpting/carving and certain types of bright-cutting, then this will involve the use of a lot of round gravers, which must be sharpened by hand, but most typical scroll can be done entirely with square & flat gravers that are easily sharpened with jigs.
 
Last edited:

DKanger

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
1,054
Location
West TN
The thing i find hilarious is as an engraver it seems you are not allowed to have struggle nowadays for every struggle you can buy a tool.
Bram,
I find it ironic that you propose that people should struggle, yet you use a Lindsay graver. How do you rough and sharpen the tips for it?
 

bram ramon

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
238
Location
Liege Belgique
I don't propose people should struggle but people nowadays should be a bit harder for them self not always searching for the most easy solution but learn what have to be learned. And Yes i have a Lindsay Pc incredible good tool but believe me or not it only the last months i started using it. Why because i missed the basis.
This can be an endless discussion there is a huge difference in the way of using tools and teaching and personalities between the US and Europe. I believe we can learn from each other although the American way will never be the European way. And its good like that when every thing/one would be the same this world would be boring place. So i would say keep on engraving!
@ mitch this year we learned how to forge, harden and temper gravers and punches...;)
 

DKanger

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
1,054
Location
West TN
I believe we can learn from each other although the American way will never be the European way.
Bram,
That's why Europe is called the "old" country and the USA is called the "new world." However, I can't help but believe that soon we will be called the old world and Asia will once again become the new world. Everything old is new again!!
 

Red Green

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2011
Messages
391
" the American way will never be the European way"

Damn right, it's one of the reasons we left and why we had a revolution, remember? We are the unwanted huddled masses of the past, some of us have not forgotten and do not want your way.

I believe Phil Coggan uses a single point for his engraving anyone wish to question his ability? I may be way off but I feel that a few different points are all that are necessary and the rest is fluff and nonsense confusing the issue of control of the graver by the operator. I may change my mind later when I gain much greater knowledge but right now the ability to make any graver point is useless to me, why would I need it? I believe an engraver could use the templates Lindsay has available right now and create any engraving they have the skill to do. I want consistent accuracy so when things go wrong I know it is me making an error not my graver being the wrong geometry because I've fluffed the job. A jig eliminates the question of and the ability to blame the tool so if something goes wrong only you are left to blame, come to think of it how do I learn to hand sharpen, stiff wrists?

Bob
 

Haraga.com

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
1,264
Location
Skiff
I guess it comes down to this, you don't know what you don't know. @ hardening and tempering, it's very important to know.
 

Red Green

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2011
Messages
391
If you want basics how about digging the iron ore making the charcoal and making the steel. Do you think it will be alright to use a digging stick or should we start with our hands? Where does it end? Do you want to engrave or make steel? It may be that I'm more interested in art than tool making skill that leaves me scratching my head as to why you think it is important to make things that are better made by a manufacturer, or expending so much on a mundane task better done with a tool. There is so much to learn why spend so much time on unconnected skill?

Bob
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
4,221
Location
Belgium
Bram, I'm from the new world as well, I live close to Antwerp. I have only been to the "hate school " for some years, why, because all my best skills were not appreciated and discouraged.

You already know about my music career on the guitar, well I still play in a band, no need to be able to read music, but if I would have needed it, sure I would have studied that... only for me not at school.
I do some great cooking as well, at least that is what my guests tell me, and yes, I know were to find a good chicken, it is just in my big garden. Ye I have to kill it first etc. Never learned that at school while you could expect that is a basic lesson. And I don’t make fire with stones, but I know how to do it, just because it is interesting for some on their way to gather knowledge.

And I agree, one can buy a chicken and make a good meal. So this is quite similar with sharpening, or like me when I started engraving, learning how to make a good transfer using tiny vector lines.

There are others that discourage my way tracing a design with what I call the Illustrator “monkey tool” I still use that but as I progressed, I’m now able to draw directly under the microscope a design on the metal. But believe me, the way I worked myself out using computer software made me progress much faster. That because I didn’t have to carry the have load of unneeded info to get started.
And if you think about it, we all still learn, and those who don’t they should quit.
And we still learn about the basics as well. So did the ones who learned the basics in the previous century missed something? Yes they did. As they only learned what their teacher allowed them to learn.

And like Mitch wrote, ”many great artists the world has been denied over the centuries because their spirit & inspiration were discouraged” and it still goes on.

I have two students as well and the way I teach is let the student explore. Tell your way but don’t get disappointed when your student does it a different way. When you teach that way, you might as well learn something new

You all might be convinced Phil Coggan is the best, sure he is great, but he had an online class with me some time ago, and I was the teacher. :)


arnaud
 
Last edited:

Andrew Biggs

Moderator
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
5,034
Location
Christchurch, New Zealand
If you want to sharpen a graver quickly and hassle free then spend the money and buy a dual angle sharpener or template and get stuck in. The instructions are all out there.

If you want to go the hand sharpening way which costs next to nothing, then be prepared to spend a lot of time, effort and frustration learning the method but you will be rewarded eventually.

Both methods work, it's just a matter of your budget and how much time you are willing to devote to it :)

Cheers
Andrew
 

John P. Anderson

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Messages
309
Location
Havre, Montana
I made all my tools and I hand sharpen. I love the process and love that I learned by pulling myself up by my bootstraps with what I had on hand.

Knowing what I know now the one thing I would change is buying some form of sharpening assistance and bit of training on how to use it properly. If your a newbie Mrthe and Sam are right on with their advice.

John
Montana, USA
 

bram ramon

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
238
Location
Liege Belgique
Bram, I'm from the new world as well, I live close to Antwerp. I have only been to the "hate school " for some years, why, because all my best skills were not appreciated and discouraged.

You already know about my music career on the guitar, well I still play in a band, no need to be able to read music, but if I would have needed it, sure I would have studied that... only for me not at school.
I do some great cooking as well, at least that is what my guests tell me, and yes, I know were to find a good chicken, it is just in my big garden. Ye I have to kill it first etc. Never learned that at school while you could expect that is a basic lesson. And I don’t make fire with stones, but I know how to do it, just because it is interesting for some on their way to gather knowledge.

And I agree, one can buy a chicken and make a good meal. So this is quite similar with sharpening, or like me when I started engraving, learning how to make a good transfer using tiny vector lines.

There are others that discourage my way tracing a design with what I call the Illustrator “monkey tool” I still use that but as I progressed, I’m now able to draw directly under the microscope a design on the metal. But believe me, the way I worked myself out using computer software made me progress much faster. That because I didn’t have to carry the have load of unneeded info to get started.
And if you think about it, we all still learn, and those who don’t they should quit.
And we still learn about the basics as well. So did the ones who learned the basics in the previous century missed something? Yes they did. As they only learned what their teacher allowed them to learn.

And like Mitch wrote, ”many great artists the world has been denied over the centuries because their spirit & inspiration were discouraged” and it still goes on.

I have two students as well and the way I teach is let the student explore. Tell your way but don’t get disappointed when your student does it a different way. When you teach that way, you might as well learn something new

You all might be convinced Phil Coggan is the best, sure he is great, but he had an online class with me some time ago, and I was the teacher. :)


arnaud

Sorry to hear you had such a bad experians at the TNA i loved it because al the students had to make the classical jewelry no modern lost wax casting all hand work the TNA school has student working for top class jewelryhouses in Paris etc these were earings i made in the final year completely by hand 6 days work.
When i look to them now i say it is rubbish but at school i was the 'proud' of the teachers.
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
4,221
Location
Belgium
John P, didn't you find the next page buttons? "A newbie should only take the advice of Sam and mrthe"? :shock:

arnaud
 
Last edited:

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
4,221
Location
Belgium
What TNA that was in Antwerp Bram ? and what does TNA mean?

And I agree whit you on what you say about the earrings "When i look to them now i say it is rubbish"

arnaud
 
Last edited:

mrthe

Moderator
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Messages
1,787
Location
Spain
If you want to sharpen a graver quickly and hassle free then spend the money and buy a dual angle sharpener or template and get stuck in. The instructions are all out there.

If you want to go the hand sharpening way which costs next to nothing, then be prepared to spend a lot of time, effort and frustration learning the method but you will be rewarded eventually.

Both methods work, it's just a matter of your budget and how much time you are willing to devote to it :)

Cheers
Andrew

Totally agree ,I think that we can say this more higher but not more clear than had sum up Andrew ;)
 
Last edited:

Andrew Biggs

Moderator
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
5,034
Location
Christchurch, New Zealand
Those are still beautiful earrings Bram...................we all look back on our previous work and see how the work can be improved and how much we have moved forward since then. :)

But back in the day when you were a student learning all this then you were quite rightly proud of them.

When you look at the museums, churches and galleries around parts of Europe and see the items that were made purely by hand and skill........... they are quite amazing. Even to this day they are something to aspire to.

You have raised very good points about students learning the basics because they are the foundations that we build on.

I've enjoyed the conversation thank you :)

Cheers
Andrew
 
Top