Newbie sharpening set up

bram ramon

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Hey Sam This is a really good idea!

I always sharpen my gravers by hand like i learn at Leon Mignon. But if you really want a template why buy them make them your self do some calculations it's so simple.
 

Red Green

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I think what's really needed and not just for us newbie's is a trained monkey to do the roughing out.


Bob

Bram,

Sam is still working on the demagnetizer calculations, poor mrthe, so don't distract him right now.
 
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Sam

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If you're looking for something on the cheap, my advice is a GRS Dual Angle fixture and a whetstone. That works really well and you're not locked in to fixed template angles. Many say templates are easier but having the freedom to change graver geometry quickly and easily (and infinitely) outweighs that. Both fixed geometry templates and adjustable fixtures have their place, and every engraver has his or her preferences.
 

mrthe

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I think that make your own templates is a bad idea is not easy like people can think ,expecially for people that haven't great experience in sharpening,i remember when i was working with Steve to my templates set, that an error of only 0,5 mm can give problems,save your time and your money,and if you want use templates buy the Lindsay system and you will have ever good sharpened gravers that is very important,after that you can use templates and stones,templates and power hone ( i have buy the en-sharp few months ago and i use it with templates) or power hone and dual fixture,if you can afford a power hone go For it,but for starting templates and diamond stones work perfect and are not very expensive.
 
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tundratrekers@mtaonline.n

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Get stones ,and a loupe to inspect tip.
You WILL be far ahead in the LONG RUN,to make the commitment to learn free hand sharpening.
Then you can use ANY graver,in ANY shape, templates will ALWAYS limit your choices of available tools to choose from.
mike
 

Red Green

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Sam,

I don't and don't think an inexperienced engraver would know what angles to change and why. I understand many engravers use only a few different points for all they engrave. Do you change your graver geometry often? I would bet you could sharpen an old nail on a suitable rock and come up with a usable graver, however, we mere mortals would be lost. I felt I should trust the experienced engravers and use what they use and not make changes until I understood why.

Mike,

How many months or years should be dedicated to this endeavor? What is a newbie to learn engraving or engraver sharpening? It is a very important part of engraving but why spend so much time on a mechanical process?

Bob
 

Sam

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Bob: I have had detailed sharpening instructions on iGraver.com for years, so it's not like there are no instructions out there, plus with the helpful members on the forum a newbie sharpener can be up and running quickly. I can't say I change my graver geometry often, but I use the same dual angle fixture to sharpen a variety of gravers (flats, squares, 120s), so I'm dialing in different angles for whatever I'm sharpening at the moment. I might change things if it's stubbornly hard material so I like the freedom of changing and fine tuning a degree or two to suit my needs.

As for totally freehand sharpening, I see no benefit in that whatsoever. Just my humble opinion.
 

Red Green

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Sam,

I did not mean the information was not available. You have dedicated years teaching engraving and I doubt there is much you haven't covered with some type of instruction. What I meant was with the mountain of knowledge and skill required to engrave it is something I have not felt a great need for. If the geometry is somehow faulty with the graver I'm using, I would not know that I need a 92.5 versus a 96 degree graver so knowing I could change it would do no good.

Bob
 

bram ramon

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Hey

For you guys who really need an Template ore some assistent to sharpen a graver i did some calculations to make your one template it's in MM but feel free to convert it to inches.
So what do you need a piece of arcrlaty plate or a piece of steel plate, a collet of GRS ore a beading tool holder.Tools: a Steel saw a file and some drills the diameter 6.35mm is the diameter of the quiq chance collet of GRS if you would use a beading tool holder you have to measure the diametre.
Now here you see the drawing

This template will give you a 90° point, 10° heel, 45°/50° face angle
What you can freely can chance is the 90° point you can chance it to 110° or a 80° what ever you want.
The 10° heel You will get a 10° heel if the graver sticks 40mm out of the plate measured at the plate not the collet! (This 10° heel is not perfect it will depend on your graver diameter)
If you are using pneumatic assistend your heel will probably be bigger so for a 13° heel drill the hole hole at 9mm hight for 14°heel at 10mm for a 15°heel at 11mm for a 16° heel at 11.5mm
For other heel angles i would say calculate your self.
Important if you chance the heel by chanching the hole you also should re calculate the total hight of the plate (40/47) which will give you your 45° ore 50° face angle.
Another methode more simple to change the heel is by changing the lenght the graver is sticking out. Also for this do some calculations.
The face angle The graver is also sticking 40 mm out, you just use the other flat side of the plate.
I you cut the plate at 40mm hight it will give you a 45° face angle at 47mm a 50° face angle
For the rest what is important when you put the collet in the plate. above the hole you see the small "groove" here you put a smaal wig in which will measure with the small groove in the GRS collet.
You want the hole drilled nice in the middle when it's for instance 0.3 out of the centre it's really not a disaster. And those who say so know if your sharpen a graver on a template and you sharpen to long at one side your point is also out of the centre.
So i believe i have given you anough information to get started and make your ONE calculations. So please don't ask cuastions if the answer is use what God has given you ;)
And believe me; do it your self you don't want to be independent of others who love it to make money. But you want to be independent of your one hands and Brains. And you'll be free !
Sorry for my English
 

mrthe

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Bram i have serious doubts that with this templates you can sharp a graver correctly,i haven't grs collects because i don't use it,but looking the photos of that collects that you say use for hold the graver in the template i have some questions,the holes of the collects are round or square? if are round holes the graver will be in axisis when you hold it with the screw?Because if not when you sharp it this method can't work,and for resharp the graver find the right posiction will be very hard and very slow (the same problem that you will have with a beading holder) ,maybe i'm wrong but i won't ask before to resolve my dudes.

All the way i think that for newbies,like in this post are asking,is not the best solution made your own templates,because to make some decent tool that can work you will spent a lot of time and finally you will spent the same money (if you are luck) like buying directly a existent template of fixture system.
 

bram ramon

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Bram i have serious doubts that with this templates you can sharp a graver correctly,i haven't grs collects because i don't use it,but looking the photos of that collects that you say use for hold the graver in the template i have some questions,the holes of the collects are round or square? if are round holes the graver will be in axisis when you hold it with the screw?Because if not when you sharp it this method can't work,and for resharp the graver find the right posiction will be very hard and very slow (the same problem that you will have with a beading holder) ,maybe i'm wrong but i won't ask before to resolve my dudes.

Hey




All the way i think that for newbies,like in this post are asking,is not the best solution made your own templates,because to make some decent tool that can work you will spent a lot of time and finally you will spent the same money (if you are luck) like buying directly a existent template of fixture system.

The thing is even with a round hole in the collets it will work. The grs collet has 2 screws when you put a square graver in it when you tighten the 2 one will hold the flat side the other will hold the sharp edge ore the corner so what you want is you want it to hold the flat side. Then you use put the collet in the hole the groove upwards now press a small wig which in the the groove now your GRS collet is hold in perfect position.
For the beading tool holder the collets which are used are normally cut in 4 so you use one of this cuts to put the corner of your graver in. Its a bit more difficult to put the collet holder in the right position but with a bit of brain work you'll get there.
Anyway i'm anti templates they take way to much time and they are limited. All professional gravers especially the older generation sharpen by hand 10 times quicker then templates and all these stuff you "have" to buy. The thing is nowadays people are made to believe you have to buy all this stuff to get there. That is absolutely rubbish! When i started i bought all my tools gravers, hammer, sharpening stone,loupe and vice for something like 100€. The first month was hard i don't admit but know i'm independent of all this stuff.
Anyway for the guys who w would like to make one i'll make a step by step how to make a template and believe me in less then 15min it will be finished.
 

bram ramon

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Ok

I made a template and it works! I made a miscalculation for the face angle if you want a 45° you want that to be at 40mm starting the center of the hole the same for the 50° Sorry for that. So on the pics i show this is wrong. And also very important this template will only give you the right angles if it is used at the same hight of the sharpening stone!! If you have a 10mm high sharpening stone for instance you will have to drill the hole 10mm higher.
Sow what did i use a piece of Trespa and a Grs collet
On the pic you will see i use an accu drill, a drill standard is a lot better of course but is you can drill a strait hole by hand why not. For the groove in the trespa a used a needle file.
The wig i used a piece of stainless Tig welding wire.

Here the pale is cut out and the hole is drilled and the groove is made;

All parts assembled


And here we are sharpening;

So here you see the point i did not sharpen it completely this used to be a 80° graver so you still see the old facets

So feel free to copy it produce it chance it do whatever you want with it! It's not Patented :D
 
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Chujybear

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No need to exaggerate. If you're saying that it is important to know how to sharpen by hand, point taken.
If you are saying that a guy using a sharpening fixture will sharpen the same point quicker than a guy with a template, I'd say impossible..
If you're saying a guy with a perfect eye sharpening by feel, could go faster. That I could believe, but one tip would throw it all off.
A lot of "professionals" use templates.
 

Kevin Scott

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When i started i bought all my tools gravers, hammer, sharpening stone,loupe and vice for something like 100€. The first month was hard i don't admit but know i'm independent of all this stuff.
.

Bram, you made some good points. And you work and results make them credible. But I believe you went to school full time, and were taught how to do things, and was told when a graver had poor geometry, and how to correct it.

For someone trying to learn engraving on his own, the worst thing is trying to do it with a graver of poor geometry. He does not know if his poor results are because of his technique, tools, or graver geometry. He gets frustrated and gives up.

Using a template or a dual angle holding fixture eliminates that variable. At minimum it is a help to get started. And then later can try hand sharpening after he understands geometry, and how different angles affect graver behavior, if he so desires.

I hand sharpen after roughing out the graver using a Crocker fixture and power hone. Sometimes can do it faster than using a template or my Hamler fixture. But many times not. Hand sharpening for me is much faster if I am only resharpening the face when the graver gets dull or chipped. But still have to very very carefull I did not change the geometry.
 

bram ramon

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I don't say a a sharpening fixture is faster than a template for me this is al the same. It's faster by hand and not so limited
And probably in the US templates and sharpening fixtures are a lot more used then here in Europe. It's exactly like Mike sad; "Get stones ,and a loupe to inspect tip.
You WILL be far ahead in the LONG RUN,to make the commitment to learn free hand sharpening.
Then you can use ANY graver,in ANY shape, templates will ALWAYS limit your choices of available tools to choose from."
 

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