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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Scott View Post
    Bram, you made some good points. And you work and results make them credible. But I believe you went to school full time, and were taught how to do things, and was told when a graver had poor geometry, and how to correct it.

    For someone trying to learn engraving on his own, the worst thing is trying to do it with a graver of poor geometry. He does not know if his poor results are because of his technique, tools, or graver geometry. He gets frustrated and gives up.

    Using a template or a dual angle holding fixture eliminates that variable. At minimum it is a help to get started. And then later can try hand sharpening after he understands geometry, and how different angles affect graver behavior, if he so desires.

    I hand sharpen after roughing out the graver using a Crocker fixture and power hone. Sometimes can do it faster than using a template or my Hamler fixture. But many times not. Hand sharpening for me is much faster if I am only resharpening the face when the graver gets dull or chipped. But still have to very very carefull I did not change the geometry.
    Oke you are right

    On my school we got a piece of paper with some sketches on heel of 10 face angle 45 That whas it the teacher sharpened one we looked how she did it. And we started sharpening our point if they did not cut we started over. Some still have problems sharpening the graver point but afther a time you create your one graver geometry. And that is the way how you start understanding graver geometry. Wen you use a template the template directs you what to do...

  2. #22
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    Bram,


    I understand what you are saying Bram but it is just is not viable to build your own template system. While it can be done with far more work than you may think why bother? If you buy a GRS or Lindsay sharpening system you are not 'stuck' with it, well cared for used equipment sells quickly and you can expect your loss would be within reason. I think most new engravers are looking for a way to get the job of sharpening done, not make a career of graver sharpening or system building. If you want to engrave the answer is simple if you want to build equipment this is an opportunity to spend endless hours in the workshop.

    As for hand sharpening offering any shape and being unlimited, what good does it do? Are all those shapes that are possible better than the shapes known to work, that have been proven to do the job for years? Why spend all the time and effort just to come to the same conclusion? I don't think the few seconds it takes to set up a jig and get the job done will ever be as much as the time spent doing it any other way, few will learn to hand sharpen or build a personal system in less time or at less cost in the end.

    Bob

  3. #23
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    ....and you can start sharpening with templates and after understand graver geometry and create your graver geometry too

  4. #24
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    May 2009
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    When hand sharpening, I found it is very important to measure the angles. Your eye can be fooled very easily.

    When resharpening the face I carefully check the angles to make sure I have not changed the geometry. If the graver had a 100 degree face width and now by sharpening the face only it is 95 or 105, I know I changed the face angle. I check the face angle on both sides to make sure it is symmetrical.

    Pictured are the tools I have used. Started with the protractor. Works well, but takes time.

    Then made the clear plastic gauge. Not as accurate as the protractor, but faster. Good idea, but worked poorly.

    Then made white plastic gauge, thin piece of plastic. Picture shows checking graver face angle from heel. Works great. Fast, accurate, easy to use. Now can get consistent results hand sharpening.

    I am not a real strong believer in hand sharpening. But there are some advantages. But until I came up with a system to carefully check angles, I could not easily duplicate a graver that worked well. Also could destroy a good graver's effectiveness by minor hand sharpening if I did not return it to the same exact angles.
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  5. #25
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    Bobby, I have the GRS Power Hone and the Dual Angle fixture. Quite a few people have and like the Lindsay templates for the simplicity and repeat ability.

    I agree with Sam regarding the versatility of the Dual Angle fixture and once you have some experience and find you prefer a specific point, the Lindsay templates may be a good choice.

    While the GRS Power hone works well, if I were purchasing a motorized hone right now, I would seriously consider Tom White's. It is similar to the Power Hone, but adds "variable speed" which speeds things up dramatically when grinding gravers that heat is not an issue.
    Peter E.


  6. #26
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    Nov 2006
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    I sharpen my gravers by hand for years and the Power Hone & dual angle fixture is the best thing to ever come along,the only graver I sharpen by hand now is the onglette which I still engrave with.The Lindsay templates also work well with the power hone.J.J.
    Last edited by JJ Roberts; 06-17-2012 at 02:33 AM.
    JJ Roberts
    School of Artistic Engraving
    Manassas, VA
    www.angelfire.com/va2/engraver
    www.jjrobertsengraver.com


  7. #27
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    Bram,
    Don't waste your words.
    Only wants to know what tools are needed,not sharpening advice.
    If they want to learn to sharpen ,they will ask.
    Americans are very "Right Now" types.
    Not many want to actually learn something from the ground up,it just is foolishness to them.

    If they have to have every gadget on the market,let them spend the $.

    mike
    Last edited by tundratrekers@mtaonline.n; 06-17-2012 at 07:58 AM.

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  9. #28
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    Mike,For me it's not a hobby,I don't have the time to spend sharping gravers by hand any more.That what we had to do back in the day,but things have changed and for the good.In my class I teach the H&C and hand gravers but when it comes to sharping I want the student to leave knowing how to sharping there gravers properly weather they use power or go traditional. J.J.
    Last edited by JJ Roberts; 06-17-2012 at 01:13 PM.
    JJ Roberts
    School of Artistic Engraving
    Manassas, VA
    www.angelfire.com/va2/engraver
    www.jjrobertsengraver.com


  10. #29
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    Nov 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by tundratrekers@mtaonline.n View Post
    Americans are very "Right Now" types.
    Not many want to actually learn something from the ground up,it just is foolishness to them.

    mike
    Hey Mike, when you make a blanket statement like that I'd like to see the source of your data.

    Sam

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  12. #30
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    Wow Sam, Mike's statement reads very much as an opinion to me. I can't say I'm in great disagreement with him. I for one do not wish to spend a great deal of time learning archaic techniques that have been abandoned by most of the modern professionals I respect.

    There must be a long list of forgotten and unused techniques abandoned by engravers through the centuries shouldn't we recover and practice them also? If the history is more important to you than getting the work done then you are an historian engraver, some of us are not that interested in living history, sorry. I prefer electric lights over candles and would leave any doctors office who wanted to bleed me with leeches for a head cold.

    I think the point is to get repeatable geometry that works for you, however you get it the graver and object being engraved will not care if you spend a few seconds or hours and hours obtaining it.

    Bob
    Last edited by Red Green; 06-17-2012 at 04:56 PM.

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