How to Tessellate small scrols

Donny · Mar 13, 2015

You need Ron Smith' s books (pictured in a recent photo that Carlos posted while at a restaurant) and Sams video(s) on scroll design. Should spend that money then draw for 3months then start cutting what you've drawn in three month increments back and forth drawing and cutting and your skills will grow faster then trying to tackle advanced methods. I promise it will truly show you if this is your path....

Donny

monk · Mar 13, 2015

i couldn't simplify this more than i already have. mr hands laid it out in a few simple steps. just fill you scroll pattern with whatever level of detail you're able to do. i don't speak for barry, just myself. if i were engraving this, i'd not draw in any details. i'd simply cut the details on the fly. makes for a more spontaneous result, i think. as mr london mentioned, perhaps a more "entry level" type design would be easier to get going with.
if i had to fill this pattern by drawing details in, i'd probably go cross-eyed ! jmho

Dad of 3 · Mar 13, 2015

Ya I think I'll come back to this method down the road. I intend on buying several books and videos in the near future.

Sam · Mar 13, 2015

I made Barry's pattern in Illustrator and gave it a quick test.

Dimas · Mar 13, 2015

Interesting this approach, thanks for showing, Greetings

Brian Marshall · Mar 13, 2015

In the USA - I can only think of maybe 6 people I've known in 40 years who have actually made drawing a priority.

In Europe it is(was?) mandatory in formal training - before ever picking up a graver.

Buying ALL the books and videos available will do you no good - even if you look at them daily for the rest of your life. (or take them to restaurants)

Not unless you actually DO the practice!

Brian

And making use of this forum to get that practice critiqued as Arnaud Van Tilberg and Shawn Didyoung have done - is the quickest and most economical learning method I have ever seen.

Dad of 3 · Mar 13, 2015

Brian I think you are so right based on the way I have learned to do other things doing is the only way to really start the learning process. Sam thank you for posting your findings. Is what you posted considered a good rough scroll design or are you not happy with what came from it?

Sam · Mar 13, 2015

Dad of 3 said:
Brian I think you are so right based on the way I have learned to do other things doing is the only way to really start the learning process. Sam thank you for posting your findings. Is what you posted considered a good rough scroll design or are you not happy with what came from it?

I'd say I'm happy that Barry's method (or the old method he said he'd discovered) worked reasonably well for my quick test. There are some areas I'm not happy with which could use some tweaking, but I'm confident I can make this work. Is my layout perfect? No.

What surprises me is that Barry immediately cuts all the scroll backbones before laying out the inner elements. He can then clean off his sharpie marks, lay out the rest, and get 'er done. I've never cut the backbone first and then drew in the rest later, but it really works well for him. He's a very clever guy.

Brian Marshall · Mar 13, 2015

Always done that myself... drawn the backbone and cut it first. Never thought it was clever...

Thought it was "normal"? Guess not?

Brian

Dad of 3 · Mar 13, 2015

Thanks guys! I know this is a good bit above my pay grade I just ran across it and trying to learn from it and you guys. I wish I could find more info on drawing and layout here. Anything else that is more on pace with just starting that I could look at would be great.

Brian Marshall · Mar 13, 2015

Go and look at Arnauds & Shawns posts from when they first joined the forum.

Look at the images they posted as they learned.

Look at the questions they asked.

Brian

Sam · Mar 13, 2015

Brian Marshall said:
Always done that myself... drawn the backbone and cut it first. Never thought it was clever...

Thought it was "normal"? Guess not?

Brian

I have no idea what normal is

I've always done a complete layout of every detail excepting shading lines before cutting. The only exception would be lumenesque or English fine scroll. Absolutely nothing wrong with engraving the backbone first as you and Barry have proven. It might get hairy if you have lots of intertwining scrolls?

Speaking of normal, McKenzie told me I designed scroll incorrectly because I start at the widest part of the scroll and design inward toward its center. He started in the center and designed outward. THAT sounds totally back-asswards to me but it certainly worked for him

Brian Marshall · Mar 13, 2015

There are a coupla Western engravers that engrave "backwards" - to me anyway...

From the finial back towards the base or "root".

Jeremiah Watt comes to mind

Brian

And yes, intertwining scrolls can be problematic... I usually work those out beforehand on paper so's I know where I'm supposed to be going.

If they are real complicated or critical I will go as far as transferring backbones from a printed transparency. Not too often, but on some one of a kind pieces.

Most of what I do is repetitive - so one or two runs will set the pattern in my mind for however many come after.

take-down · Mar 14, 2015

When This tread was first started I became very interested in the subject
I did a Google search and ended up on the Wikipedia site
By clicking on the many links on that page, I discovered The history of, The mathematics' involved
& the rules governing, also That there are regular and irregular Tessellation's
I found it a fascinating read
If anybody else is so inclind I have posted a link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessellation

Cheers

Dad of 3 · Mar 14, 2015

sam said:
I have no idea what normal is I've always done a complete layout of every detail excepting shading lines before cutting. The only exception would be lumenesque or English fine scroll. Absolutely nothing wrong with engraving the backbone first as you and Barry have proven. It might get hairy if you have lots of intertwining scrolls?

Speaking of normal, McKenzie told me I designed scroll incorrectly because I start at the widest part of the scroll and design inward toward its center. He started in the center and designed outward. THAT sounds totally back-asswards to me but it certainly worked for him

I would guess most design the scroll from center out that take pointers from this forum. The book most say to get is Meeks book which shows to start at the center. I wonder how many that recomend different training books and such have ever looked at them...
As a new person with no training on scrollwork yet it also seems natural for me to attempt a scroll starting on the outside. It just seems easier to control I guess. Don't really have any idea if it even matters as long as the end result is pleasing to the eye. I'm glad to see that several masters of this craft can do things completely different yet end up with something just as nice.

Sam · Mar 14, 2015

A fabulous resource that's free is the Ken Hunt thread. The master himself goes into detail about how he approaches design. This is extremely valuable information that you won't find in books. Anyone wanting to hone their art skills should study it thoroughly.

dlilazteca · Mar 14, 2015

Dad of 3 said:
The book most say to get is Meeks book which shows to start at the center. I wonder how many that recomend different training books and such have ever looked at them...

Don't know if its just me, but seems like you want to be taken by the hand and walked.

Meeks book is one of the best, the point you should focus on is how they are drawn and put together in harmony, how to fill the spaces with a pleasant design. How you draw, left to right, right to left, or with your feet makes no difference, as long as you know the basics, how you draw them is up to you. If you feel comfortable with it, then roll with it.

If you feel the recommendations given are not good enough, then buy what you think will work, or just simply take a class, that's more of what you need.

Page 4-5 figure8, 9, and 10 Meek explains how to draw scroll backbones. "Draw each scroll rather slowly, concentrating on your control and making it as evenly progressive as you possibly can."

here hes telling you to avoid elbows and flat shops on your backbones and (again how you do this is up to you).

Page 6 explains how to extend the scroll backbones and start to combine them, shown in figure 11, 13a and 13b.

Im sorry to say there is no one magical resource that you can buy and learn it in one day, it a culmination of many factors that will get you where you want to be. Just start with the boxes as Meek recommends, and go from there one step at a time.

Saludos,
Carlos

Dad of 3 · Mar 14, 2015

I'm sorry Carlos is this a place to get information or not? I made a statement about how several masters take a different path yet end up with great works of art. How is the world did you get I want walked anywhere out of that lol...

dlilazteca · Mar 14, 2015

Why would you make a reference to what people recommend, suggesting they probably never even read or seen what they recommend, as to insinuate that they don't know what they're talking about, maybe it was not to your standards, find what you feel will for work for you, that's all, there just recommendations not mandatory.

Saludos,
Carlos

KCSteve · Mar 14, 2015

I often draw the scrolls from the inside out but the leaves I do from the outside in. For some reason I find it easier to get the expansion right working out but I agree with Sam - I have no idea how you'd do the leaves working back out. Might have to try it though.

How to Tessellate small scrols

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