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pierre

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In Belgium the title "master" engraver don't exist legaly every body can write "master" on the personnal card if they want but finally it's not important it's only the regards of the other on your works that is important.
 

Peter E

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This is a very interesting thread. There still exists the Apprentice, Journeyman, Master designations in the trades, but in a lot of other arenas it may simply be self proclaimed.

I recall some years back, I was speaking to a fellow that called himself a "master woodcarver". When I asked what defined him as a master, he replied that when you are a master at carving, your hands can work independantly of ones mind. I accepted that as a fairly good definition, as he made continuous eye contact with me, while he carved a perfect Chippendale style clawfoot leg of a chair in mahogany.

While Sam may also be certifiable:D , he is undoubtedly a MASTER at engraving.

Peter
 

monk

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i really think most engravers ( most ) are a humble lot. the masters seldom lay claim to the title. most are far too humble. and those of us who aren't masters ( like me ) are far too respectful of those who are, to steal an undeserved title, jm2cw
 

KCSteve

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In knifemaking the ABS (American Bladesmithing Society) has a formal system for working your way up through Journeyman to Master Smith. I don't think they have an official 'Apprentice' level, just the ones that recognize that you've achieved certain skills.

The tests include purely subjectice elements - you have to hand forge a test knife that can be flexed 90 degrees and spring back, etc. I believe they also include some subjective elements judged by the group that you appear before.

FEGA's system is probably similar (haven't looked at it yet). Even figuring out the objective part of an Engraver certification sounds tricky to me - but then again, I'm just a Novice. ;)
 

Marrinan

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In 1972 I began a formal 4 year appenticeship as a Joiner (cabinetmaker) with the The United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America. The organization is commonly called the Carpenters Union. During the first year I worked 4 hour days as an apprentice then went to a formal school setting and studied the various aspects of both the trade, the union history and organized labor under a carefully developed curriculum designed by the brotherhood apprentice division and the uionized cabinetshop owners, I was accepted into the program based on performance as production worker and the willingness of my employer to pay me for going to school. The next three years I worked full time at the trade with school 2 hours a day on my own time.

The union allows a certain number of formal apprentices in a work environment based on the number of journeyman at the bench. As I recall it was a maximum of one apprentice to 8 journeyman at the time. After the first years general studies the curriculum focused on specific skill sets for some aspect of the trade (machine work, design, joinery) specific kinds of work like finshing. Each of these required a minimum of six months in that specific area in the work environment as well. Six months of finishing then six months to machining then six months assembling etc.

During each of the subjects we tested our skills to the journeyman level and when our exempler work was at journeyman level as judged by both the Union and the employers reps we were allowed to work at that skill set without someone looking over our shoulder and continually checking our work (our supervising journeyman).

When it came time to be certified as a journeyman we were required to produce a project which would call on all the skills we had studied and mastered. This project (a toolbox made from over 20 species of wood with every type of joinery and fiinshed to the highest cabinet finsh level would be judged by both labor and management as worthy of journeyman status-we were formally tested on our knowleged of the skills required to produce cabinets, furniture and even coffin joinery to the professional standards establish jointly between our union and the owners of the shops we would work in. Insidently apprentice pay started at half journeyman pay (i took a pay cut from production worker) and incrementaly increased at six month intervals until journeyman testing-if you failed you went back to production worker.

What was in the program for the onwers was the ability to hirer a journeyman and know absolutly the skill they would bring to the shop-owners could call the union hall and request a joiner or even an apprentice with specific skill sets completed and know exactly the skills we would provide without even meeting us thus insuring a ready trained workforce with specific skills. They were able to bid jobs without worry about finding trained joiners. What the journeyman got -last to be layed off-x number of journeyman per production worker and apprentice (job security). The Union got an agreement with the unionized shop owners to provide the labor required to a professional standard at a set pay rate insuring the continuation of the program. Insidently, the onwers could hire whomever they choose to work for them. I worked is several "right to work" states in my time and the onwers often brought production workers in off the street. In unionized states they had to join the Union as production workers in other places it was not required but nearly all did in hope they would become apprentices. This apprenticeship system proved a win win win stituation for the commercial cabint and store fixture shops and the owners tended to appreciate the union role in garanteeing a readywork force. The owners knew exactly what a skilled journeyman would cost and the purchasing public got quality joinery.

The downside was that woodbutchers with little or no training opened shops that tried to produce work and called themselves "master" cabinetmakers with little or no training-many made some table or chest of drawers that mom and the neighbor said was a masterpiece and they sold a lamp (in those years often a waterbed frame made of construction grade lumber screwed together) with no idea about fit and finsh, appropriate joinery etc. Sadly the public bought the crap and most of the funiture shops became productions shops with maybe one or two individual with journeyman skills per hundred production workers.

Long winded but should start to sound familar. I beleive Bob Evans addressed this issue very clearly in George Serwoods book.

I generally scan the gun websites looking at engraved guns-looking both for ideas and at the competition if I can use that term. I see many arms described as engraved by a master engraver, both self proclaimed and self promoting and by sellers trying to generate higher prices, that is, to use the term of the English trained supervising cabinetmaker responsible for my taining "bloody *&^$%^# butchery" A term you did not want to hear applied to your work-ever.

The United Brotherhood only used the term "master" to describe someone who had made major contributions to the betterment of the trade, the union and his fellows and I NEVER heard it applied to a working cabinetmaker as a job title in the uion environment-sadly most often used at funerals-

Sorry for the long discourse-a subject I hold dear as I did acheive journeyman status and eventually trained others in the trade-one of the proudest days in my life when I was assigned MY apprentice-which eventually lead to a teaching career to the doctral level-Insidently, in the good old US of A I went to school to "earn a doctorate" though study and writing a disertation-in the Eroupe of the recent past a Doctorate was "awarded" based on contributions to the field of study-by your peers through an institution specilizing in that field of study-That is why a scholar with multiple doctorates from instiutions like Oxford are so revered by those of use who look at education as more than terminal.

Sorry -Fred
 

Ron Smith

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There also are no recognized apprenticeships here or formal processes. That leaves us without the means with one exception.

In other words, if you show your work to a "Master" engraver and he approves, then I would say you have earned the title, but you should not go by anyone who just claims to be one. After you get into the circles of the art, you will come into contact with those who can judge impartially and honestly without ego.

I would suggest that you submit your work to be scrutinized by one who is recognized by all to be "at the top" of his field. Could you be called a "master" engraver if you only have one style? Or could you be considered such if you could only do lettering and no scroll work?

This word has been so badly abused in this country without foundation, it is doubtful anyone would believe it anyway.

Having said that, you can be a master jeweler, master gun engraver, master knife engraver, master buckle engraver, but the real master is one who can do within the engraver trade, anything in any style that he is called on to do with skill and professional results. In other words he has mastered his tools and knowledge to the point that his skills can be used in all venues with equal results. You cannot confound him with a task.

But like monk said, the true "master" is the one who isn't likely to admit it, but everyone else sees him as such.

Personally, I would rather be recognized that way than to put any designation on myself, as I feel I am still learning as many of us do, and besides that, my work is more important to me than any ungrounded, unfounded ego trip.

So I think it was Marty that said your work will speak for itself. I believe that is true, but some can do one thing masterfully and botch something else.

For business purposes, the ethics that you run your business by will get you far better rewards and results than any title you might put on your business cards anyway.....My business card always just said (Ron Smith, Hand engraver) and I let the public think what they want........ If you put Master Engraver on your card and you are not one, you will be damaging yourself, so concentrate on how you deal with your clients, and do the best you can, and it will come in due time, not by your own desires, but by others out of the quality of the products you produce over time whatever they are. That is the more important thing anyway, but people tend to believe the word of someone they respect, or someone who endorses them. You are blowing into the wind if you put your own title on there for the sake of the glory without the proof, and a true "Master" is one who is willing to earn it, not just say it.

It was slow coming, but It worked for me...............

Another two cents on the subject.

Ron S
 

Sam

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Excellent post, Ron. The only thing I would add is that if a person is going to make the claim, they dang sure better be able to deliver the goods!
 

Roger Bleile

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Has anyone read issue #81 of The Engraver? This issue has been addressed by the Guild. Henceforth, those who were Certified Professional Engravers are now designated as FEGA Master Engravers. So beginning this year, those who successfully go through the certification process will be awarded the title of Master. I won't attempt to go into a full explanation of this here as it is well explained in the magazine.

Though I personally had nothing to do with the change, I fully support it. Because the Guild did not take "ownership" of the title "master", any hacker with a chisel could (and did) call himself a "master" yet guild certified professionals were not supposed to use that title. That is one reason that I never bothered to go through the process. I believed that the CPE designation was meaningless outside the guild.

I realise that this change does not apply to those who have nothing to do with engraving guns. The guild rules for certification requires the applicant to submit work on guns so it is somewhat a non-issue to our jewelers, die makers, coin cutters and knife specialists.

CRB
 
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mhgjewel

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most masters i know hate looking at their own work because they see all the flaws that they have made, which means once you master the basics then you strive to master the perfection. but the rest of us look at the work and think wow this guy is a master.

a piece of paper does not make one a master, but it probably will get you a couple of one time jobs.

fellow tradesman praising your work as great makes you a master, repeat customers requesting your work because others can not do it as good as you makes you a master.

patients grasshopper

Matthew-Novice
 
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joseph engraver

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The title master, carpenter, machinist, plumber, tool maker, engraver, wood carver or whatever, is a way of saying that you respected by others of the same trade, and you have paid your dues.
You must be respected by those who have also reached these same highest levels of that trade, by putting forth all the effort needed to be able to do all aspects of the work in a professional manner. There is absolutely nothing wrong in using the word master.
But, your work has to be able to justify that adjective.
I do agree that some people abuse the word in hopes that they will find some uneducated fool to give them money for poor labor at overrated prices, however they do not last long.
I have never understood why the word master has caused so much uproar within the members of FEGA and I am glad that this is being changed. What in the hell is wrong with adding the word master to your business card if it is true? I have never been as modest as my friend Ron, who is with out any doubt a true master.
That is my two pesos on this subject.

.
 

Mack

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I am in no way qualified to judge anyones work in this field. Not even my own. However I know something of life and from that will give my opinion since it is acceptable here on this forum for anyone to do so. I was a jeweler for many years and knew many jewelers who's window said Master Jeweler and in my opinion they were not. They did that for advertising purposes. Randall knives years ago started calling his knives The Best In The World. Although he made some great knives that could also be desputed. It probably made him more money since the public doesn't know much about steels and such but are proud to own a Randall knife. As Ron Smith says in his book, The experienced collectors and others in the field do know. If this is a matter of having enough confidence in yourself to call your self a Master Engraver, then here is how I would see it. If there were a gathering of those who are Masters, like Sam, John B, Marcus, Ron Smith and such and you stood among them, would your work measure up, and would you still feel comfortable calling yourself a Master Engraver? If so then by all means do so. If not then you must decide whether you want to do it for other reasons. I hope this does not offend you. It is only an opinion of one who sits in awe of the Masters here!
 

Charlie

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I consider any time I dedicate toward becoming a "Master" to be a waste.

I will go even farther, how good I am is not important! It is the quality of my work.

Let the term "Master" be a word that others may, or may not, apply to me.

In all truthfulness, I do not consider myself good, but I can do some good work.

By the way,

I do not engrave, but I do some other things that require skill and patients.
 

Roger Bleile

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I consider any time I dedicate toward becoming a "Master" to be a waste. I consider any time I spend to master my craft to be time well invested

I will go even farther, how good I am is not important! It is the quality of my work. This makes no sense to me. You don't care how good you are but care about the quality of your work:confused:
Let the term "Master" be a word that others may, or may not, apply to me.

In all truthfulness, I do not consider myself good, but I can do some good work. I don't understand this either. It seems contradictory unless you are saying that your work is good but you don't consider yourself to be good:confused:

By the way,

I do not engrave, but I do some other things that require skill and patients.

Since everyone here doesn't get The Engraver Magazine, let me explain that FEGA certified masters are neither "self proclaimed" nor just given "a piece of paper." Persons seeking certification must submit themselves to a rigorous process whereby their work is judged by other engravers who are themselves certified and have been judged. There are several engravers who participate on the Engravers Cafe' who are certified by the guild and I can assure you that all of them do very high quality work.

CRB
 

John B.

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Hello Mack,
I appreciate your kind words and the thought when you including me among the Masters.
But I must point out that I’m far from a master and not in the same league as the other names you mentioned in your post.

For many years I did have a pretty good knack for teaching the fundamentals to beginners and I am forever thankful for that and all the friendships it provided.
But it in no way takes me into the master class.
It’s easy for a beginning engraver to mistake a competent engraver for a master.
It’s very flattering but that’s a load and burden I don’t want and can’t carry.

Roger and Ron have mentioned the new Master designation proposed by FEGA to supercede Certified Professional and they belong there.
But not all Certified Pro’s are worthy of a Masters title IMO.
That includes me. Pro quality yes, Master no.
No question, FEGA has many members, some now designated Certified Pro’s and others just as member who are worthy of a Masters designation.
As Tony in “The Soprano’s” would say “I’m old school” and that’s not me.

But thank you for your kindness, Mack. I know you mean well.
I realize I’m swimming against the tide here and will have to see what the FEGA business meeting brings.
Best, John B.
 

Andrew Biggs

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I think the key to all this is in the wording “FEGA Master Engraverâ€

The whole issue works on two levels. The first is for the FEGA engravers themselves and the second is for the public. The term “FEGA Certified Professional†just simply wasn’t working for the FEGA members or the general public and therein lay the problem.

In the USA there is no formal apprentice program for engravers so there is no way to receive recognition of their skill level like other trades. To some this doesn’t matter and to others it means a lot. There is nothing wrong with either point of view as both are valid arguments.

Our customers and potential customers are even more important. Without them we are dead in the water and engraving will disappear altogether. What they think of us and our skill level in extremely important for our very survival. At a marketing and advertising level the qualification of FEGA Master Engraver is a lot easier to understand and more recognisable to our potential clients than FEGA Certified Professional.

This is where FEGA comes into play. As a way of trying to promote the art of engraving (gun engraving in particular) and raise public awareness of the art and its members the FEGA BOD has tried to address the issue. By having a recognised level of skill amongst its members it filled a void that other trades/professions have long since addressed.

We must also take into account the changing times and the evolving language and definitions we use. The definition of “Master Anything†has changed over the years as we have become more industrialised and commercialised. This is not to everyone’s taste but it is the way we as a society have become and while we can discuss the merits of the rights and wrongs of it the rest of the world is quite happily moving on.

As I said in the beginning……….the full title is FEGA Master Engraver; not Master Engraver and therein lies the difference. In issue #81 you will notice that the criteria and judging for the title/qualification has also changed. These changes are as every bit as important as the name change itself. (Pages 15 & 24). By using the word FEGA at the beginning it is clearly stating that this is a FEGA recognition and is not trying to use a generic term to encompass all engraving. The judging now will also be by FEGA Master Engravers so in fact you are going to be judged by your peers and lastly the criteria has been modified. It should be noted that the criteria has not been made easier but only more flexible.

There are many styles of engraving from the sublime to the incredibly complex. All have there place on the table of a FEGA Master Engraver. The different styles and complexity of the engraving will vary considerably from one engraver to another. A well executed and designed gun engraving will always hold it’s own against an inferior job regardless of the number of shading lines and design complexity. That is also true of the various forms of engraving. By that I mean bulino, carving, sculpting, cutting, banknote etc etc. Not every engraver is going to become a master of everything. Some will and others will master only one or a few. We all look at our work and see the mistakes in it or how the work can be improved. That’s how we become better at something. But that does not mean that your work is inferior or less deserving of a qualification. Nor should we compare our work with others. There will always be work that is better than our own because that gives us something to aspire to.

No system is foolproof or perfect and there will always be debate about making changes. The abuse of the word “Master†is going to happen no matter what. It’s happening now as it has always done and always will. At the end of the day we can do nothing about it but we can at least try.

By supporting the FEGA BOD name change from FEGA Certified Professional to FEGA Master Engraver we have a real opportunity to make sure that we can strengthen the title/qualification of “Master†and give it some real value and meaning in the future for the FEGA members. This won’t happen overnight but over a period of time. It’s a positive move in the right direction for FEGA and by lending it our support we can only make it better for engraving as a whole.

Cheers
Andrew
 

Ron Smith

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My comments are a little late, but maybe it will help the organization of the process, instead off just jumping off without serious consideration. I think the decision is already made.

I would like to say that you don't jump from a novice to being a master. I think the guild would have to then work like most of the other means of evaluation, and include journeyman and novice to clarify the different phases that an engraver must go through to reach top grade knowledge. It then must have the respect of all engravers to be able to evaluate fairly and unbiased and accurately, which again brings up the question of who is qualified to do this, and would other engravers submit to the decisions of the designated authority. We have already had some experience with this. Specificity is also important i.e. master gun engraver, master jewelry engraver, etc. etc. The guild should only be classified as gun engravers within it's walls, as that is it's banner, but anyone who can do all types could be called a "master" engraver, or maybe grand master.

Notice that above, I didn't say top grade work, I said top grade knowledge, because the quality of good work is the result of knowledge, but if an engraver can do only knife engraving without inlays, his knowledge and capacity is laking metaphoricly speaking, and would have to be very specific touting his capabilities to the client so as not to mislead him. That of course is individual responsibility and would be hard to manage unless we had demerits of some kind.

If an engraver is good in one area, and is limited to what he can do in the field, we would have to break it all down in order not to confuse the public. The public is already confused, but it is not just the engraver's fault.

And rather than bestowing honors of such magnitude onto an individual, our time as a guild, and our creed has always been, to promote the art and not any individual. I fear and remember Jack Prudhomme's warning about forming a clickish group. This is why that organization (Society of American Engravers) died. I am not sure this isn't just a natural evolution and will happen anyway, but this is always been why the guild has been so successful I think.

I personally think in my most honest opinion, our time would be better spent on education programs and accurate exposure for engravers to the public, as this would help amateurs, and professionals, or masters and clients alike. Rather than one benefiting from a title, all would benefit according to their abilities and talents. In a way, maybe authorization and classification would do that if we went about it right, I don't know for sure. But of course that does not mean all of the responsibility should be on the shoulders of the engraver. Good accurate information has always been lacking. That should be our main objective I think and judging by the responses of this forum, our engravers are doing very well classifying themselves honestly.

Amateurs attract customers who can pay within their abilities. Likewise, masters attract work within their abilities. Amateurs cannot expect to get the same rewards as the more experienced ones just because they have a title which puts them in the same category, as they will find out later that they might not get work from the clients in the master category. They know the difference. If you put a label on one not deserving of the title, we would be deceiving the public. This would be the most damaging thing to our buying public and ourselves, that we could do. We Must be as honest and forth right as possible, forgoing all ego if we are to cherish the people who support us, for without them we have nothing. Our country has forgotten this fact, putting their bottom line ahead of their love for their fellow man, and we are suffering for it.

It has always been my aim to protect my clients with honesty. This will give you greater rewards than any title ever will. If I am a master engraver, that word comes from other sources and not out of my mouth. I will accept the judgment of the fraternity where I might not accept my own evaluation of myself. I wouldn't want to deceive anyone, especially my public, for they are the ones that can be deceived. I cannot deceive my peers, and to be judged by them is more important than what I have to think about myself.

I understand very clearly what Charlie said............... The perfection of your work will reveal your inner motives, love and commitment and/or experience. That is pretty much what Jesus said. "You will be judged by your fruit." (output of any kind) That is what I am satisfied to believe, and he would know you by the spirits that motivate you.

Like Marty said......and Charlie said it too. Good work speaks for itself, but man is full of all kinds of unclean motives (not good) which reveal what is in his heart.............ego for instance, or insecurity, or vanity, (human nature) and if Jesus is not good, who is? Here are his words: "Why do you call me good master? There is nothing good but God" or in other words there is no expert but God, or truth, or whichever you wish to call him, they are all synonymous. He is pure truth, not littered with human unclean spirits and motives, and therefore is pure love. Jesus was a man who put both things together, human flesh and spirit and relied on the unbiased, innocent truth, which human nature has a hard time with, therefore leaving human nature to rule. And a human is not too good alone, by itself. No wisdom and good judgment...............only feelings and/or animal intelligence.

Now, I apologize for wandering. I often do that trying to explain the laws of creation, which all of us are very concerned with as engravers. The question would be who is going to judge, and if the spectrum is only limited to master. There is a lot of room for confusion because are we going to have a client approach an engraver and ask if he can do game scenes and gold inlay and the engraver says "no. I can only do scroll work." Then the client would have to go off to find an engraver that measures up to his expectations and rightfully so. It is really His responsibility to do so. Our responsibility is to be honest.

So......my point is, if we are going to do this, we had better have it all laid out so that we have material for the public to read. They can then evaluate the value of each category. For instance, A master should be qualified to do-----blah blah blah. flawlessly

A journeyman must be qualified to do-------blah blah blah and do it with this blah blah skill level and so on and so forth.

We spend a lot of time educating ourselves for our own good. We don't spend a lot of time educating accurately the public for our own good. This is where the confusion comes from, and this is where it will always come from, and in the past the journalists have hurt us as much and more than helped us. This comes from promoting one's self for himself, rather than promoting the art for everyone's benefit, and I don't know if this problem can be solved with labels, but it can be solved with purity and honesty.

The honest truth is, the cream usually rises to the top within and because of the dynamics of commitment, talent, and experience. I don't think this a matter of opinion. It is a matter of truth, and if it is left to speculation or conjecture, we might, and probably will mess it up.

I have an ego too. It can be a damaging spirit, but I try and not let it get involved in such important things, and am satisfied to remain just a hand engraver. Then it becomes the responsibility of the public and free enterprise system to weed out the confusion, or it will cost them. If we can help them do that, rather than confuse them, I think we would be better off.

Just more of my blah blah on the subject, and food for thought.

Ron S
 

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