Lunchbox SAA Colt

[JJ Roberts]

I have a customer who has a 1st generation single action army Colt which is a Lunchbox Colt meaning a Colt employee took this gun out of the factory one part at a time. There are no serial numbers on the gun, I thought someone had buffed them off, but I gave it the acid test and couldn't bring up any numbers at all...what should I adivse this customer as he wants engraving...what does someone do when they come up with something like this???

JJ Roberts
http://jjrobertsengraver.com

 

[fegarex]

I'm not sure exactly what your question is but I assume you want to know how to handle it as far as the ATF?
I guess I would just log it in the books with a serial number as "none". It was not uncommon for other firearms before 1968 to have no serial number.

 

[airamp]

Hi JJ,

Well it is a illegal gun. No Serial numbers you can get in big trouble with the ATF.

Dont have it in you shop and forget who has it. It is worth about 10 years.

We had a similar situation with 10 Bridgeport Thomsons in crates

Useless. The recevers would have to cut up in 3 random parts and the rest are just parts.

Problem was to get them and cut them up you would be in violation and again 10 years each.

So I would keep away from it.

AirAmp

 

[Barry Lee Hands]

does it have assembly numbers? It could possibly be a Tommy Haas gun as he built quite a few and they are virtually indistinguishable from the originals.
I would consider logging it under an assembly number if it has any and engrave those in the proper frame location.

 

[fegarex]

AirAmp,
I'm not a lawyer or an ATF agent but I think the issue with a Thompson (class 3) and a regular firearm may be different. There are gobs of .22 rifles and such manufactured before 1968 without serial numbers. I also know there is an issue with ADDING a serial number if there is none. Most times it is considered "altering" which is a no-no. I do know if there is a case where a serial number was removed, such as a recovered stolen firearm, you can go through miles of paperwork to get a new serial number.

 

[airamp]

Barry,


These came out of the Bridgeport factory during the 20-30's (fell off the truck). I had a long conversation with ATF about them (worth 30K each) but there was no option but to forget about them.

They were real Bridgeport’s under control of the underground so double jeopardy.

Rex,

I wouldn’t have it in my shop or near me, log it in, or say I ever saw it.

Just not worth it if you get audited..

Call ATF and verify if is Ok to have or to work on.

It is not worth taking any chance and I would get there opinion in writing and not guess..

AirAmp

 

[pilkguns]

AirAmp,
any machine gun not registered by May 19th, 1986 cannot legally be owned by individuals. That's the long and short of it. The number of legally owned guns quadrupled in the months leading up to the cut-off, another example of an anti-gun law having the opposite effect of the intention. And with the finite number of guns for ownership, their prices have skyrocketed. Prior to that a registered Tommy gun was only worth 5-800 bucks.

As Rex said, thousands of guns prior to 1968 GCA were not required to have serial numbers. I don't see it as an issue with ATF as long as it was not orginally there.

 

[airamp]

Scott,

Yes you are correct with Class2. We have Class3 (manufacturing) so I have to be familiar with the rules.

I personally would not have anything of question in the shop regardless of what people or ATF says (Unless in writing).

When, moving a period in the ATF rules can change a shotgun to a DD. (example Streetsweeper) it just cannot be a good thing I feel to be messing with.

AirAmp

 

[Roger Bleile]

I'm sure there are ATF and Treasury people lurking on this forum. Let's hear from them.

 

[Dave London]

ooh
now that's scary, Johnny Cash sing it

 

[ED DELORGE]

O.K, here are my thoughts.
First, Mr. roberts, how do you know the gun is a first gerneration and not a second generation or third if it has no serial number?

Second, as Rex said there are millions of guns out there without serial numbers. So what do you do if you are in the gun business and you buy a number of estate guns and some don't have numbers.

Simple, you log them in your books as make, caliber, type of wepon etc.

As a gunsmith I take in a lot of gun with no serial number. And if you are not sure call your local ATF agent and ask.

Ed

 

[ED DELORGE]

J.J. one other thought. you can engrave anything you want on a gun. What I have done on a number of old guns that a customer wanted engraved was put the first letter initial of his last name and the last four numbers of his social on the gun if he wanted.

By the way this was the same procedure I was required to do while in the military serving in Germany if a trooper was bringing back a weapon that had no serial number that he had purchased.

Ed

 

[John B.]

Ed,
Not to answer for my friend JJ, I'm sure he knows this.
But Ed, the ejector rod retainer on a First Gen is a screw.
Second and third generation have a spring loaded thumb latch as a retainer.
Many people refer to the first gen. as a "black powder frame."
This is the style of frame that was supplied with the early military SA's most of which had a 7 1/2 inch barrel.
Best regards.

 

[Dulltool]

The first Colt SAA cross slide spring retaining mechanism for the cylinder pin retention was first introduced in 1892 well before the end of the first generation run. Colt also reintroduced the single screw original frame configuration in the early 1970's from the custom shop.

 

[Sandy]

So Far everyone has a valid point. The question you have to ask yourself is; do you want to be the test case that ends up in the court system?

 

[Dave London]

Dang Sandy good point
Incoming

 

[pilkguns]

The question you have to ask yourself is; do you want to be the test case that ends up in the court system?

You have to look at the big picture and what is likely to be considered a problem. If it was a Glock with no numbers no way, but the reality is, no one cares about this SAA. It would only be an added charge if they were coming after you for something else that was major that they would gladly bargain away since the knew it would be iffy in court anyway. But as a stand alone thing, its nothing out of the ordinary, and no criminal intent intended.

If someone walked into my place with an AR-15 lower sans serial number, I would throw it back out the door, or stick it straight into the bandsaw, whichever was closer

 

[airamp]

§ 5842 Identification of firearms.

(a) Identification of firearms other
than destructive devices. Each manufacturer
and importer and anyone making
a firearm shall identify each firearm, other
than a destructive device, manufactured,
imported, or made by a serial number
which may not be readily removed, obliterated,
or altered, the name of the manufacturer,
importer, or maker, and such
other identification as the Secretary may
by regulations prescribe.


(b) Firearms without serial number.

Any person who possesses a firearm,
other than a destructive device, which
does not bear the serial number and other
information required by subsection (a) of
this section shall identify the firearm with
a serial number assigned by the Secretary
and any other information the Secretary
may by regulations prescribe.

 

[pilkguns]

If you are going to quote chapter and verse, you should tell us the chapter and verse. But it is still not applicable to the situation described by JJ.

if you care to search through ATF circulars, I know there has been an article addressing the fact that pre 68 manufactured guns were not required to have a serial number and are therefore exempt from having one, IF they were not assigned one at the time of manufacture.

 

[airamp]

Scott,

These came from ATF Statutes. That is what the little squiggles designate.

Seems clear to me.

They also came from a federal agent so here is the problem.

If pushed would anyone want to be a test case in court??

I just dont have time or the money to question it..

AirAmp