Buffing Tips Wanted

MICHAEL

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I would appreciate it if someone had the time to do a tutorial for the tips archive on metal prep and buffing of firearms and knives. I know absolutely nothing about preparing a firearm for engraving and very little about buffing.
I have been buffing some old knives I have to gain experience to eventually buff pits and scratches off of firearms and knives for engraving. I have two 3/4 HP buffers from harbor freight. Four stiff 1 inch wheels and two loose polishing wheels. I have 320 grit, 400 grit, 500 grit, and white polishing compound. I used wheel prep before applying compounds to each wheel. All wheels came from Jantz and compounds from Brownell's. I have one knife polished to a mirror finish but I can still see where some rust pits were and if I look very closely I can see very fine scratches. The steel is German Steel. The brass bolster polished very nicely and I will engave it when my skill has improved. Also plan on doing scrimshaw on the deer antler handle. I was wondering if I need to start with lower grit or maybe use 220 wet/ dry sandpaper with oil? Oh, I almost forgot. My polishing wheel only has about 1/2 coverage with the compound. I got out my wheel prep and it is solid like rubber. It's been in the basment in a plastic bag with the air removed. Do I need to get another one and can I apply it to the parts of the wheel where compound is not sticking? I tried to apply it to the wheel and it didn't work. Any help will be much appreciated. thanks in advance!
P.S. I'm not planning on engraving a firearm. Just in search of knowledge. I print alot of the info from the website and read it on my breaks at work. That way when I am able to engrave a firearm I will have know how to prep it and can also build those skills as I go along. The buffing started because my wife wanted me to engrave a flower on her key chain she got as a gift from work. It had laser etching on it she didn't like and I buffed it off. It had what appeared to be a nickle or chrome finish but was a coppery color underneath. Any problems engraving copper? Thanks again.
 
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John B.

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Michael,
Buffing should play a VERY small part in firearms and knife prep.
More firearms and knives are ruined by buffing than by almost anything else.
Most of the prep work is done with die maker stones and hard backed sanding with various grits of abrasive cloth.
Fega has Seminar tape made by Bob Strosin showing the correct method.
That would be a great place to start IMO.
I'm sure you will get a lot of different ideas on this post.
Best.
 

Tim Wells

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First and foremost, you don't buff a firearm you "polish" it by sanding with the proper grit in the proper direction so it ends up being like the factory sent it out the door.

It is a common misconception that guns are buffed on a wheel with compound but they are not. Buffing a key fob is one thing that if you goof up you lost a couple of bucks, do that to a gun and you'll ruin it.

Buffing say a rifle for example, the corners on an octagon barrel should be sharp and crisp, buff it up like you're thinking and it'll round all those corners off and the original makers roll stamp (Winchester) will be smeared and look terrible if it's there at all. Same thing applies to the frame, you don't want round corners.

Turnbull Restorations in NY sells a metal prep DVD that goes over the basics of preparing rifles, pistols, and shotguns for refinishing, I'd suggest you get one, it will save you money and heartache. I used to think they were buffed too so don't feel bad, like you I asked about it before I dove in and made a mistake, twas a good thing too.
 

Andrew Biggs

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Stones work well for initial preparation as they remove more metal initially. Start from course and work to fine.......then sanding automotive wet and dry paper works well with oil as the lubricant. Die sinker stones are cheap enough. Small Arkansas stones are also very handy to have lying about for all sorts of jobs.

But don't go hard with the stone by trying to gauge out the metal, let the stone do the work. Use a lubricant suitable to the stones, either oil or water.

The stones you want are roughly about 1/2" X 1/2" x 4" or maybe a bit smaller

Just be ultra cautious in areas where parts fit together and metal touches wood, go as light as possible around these areas and keep all edges sharp and crisp. (that applied to anything)

It just depends really on how bad the surface is. If pitted then you have a lot of work and if already a good finish then maybe not much. Even a supposedly new gun can still require a few hours effort to get it right.

This can work well for most metal preps apart from precious metals obviously.

A caution when using stones. The slag builds up rather quickly and can catch bits of metal and you can end up scratching the surface again with the slag........so clean them often with a rag or whatever so this doesn't happen.

Get the DVD that John B talks about as Bob did a great explanation about it. The DVD that Tim recommends sounds like a really good one to have and I'll put that on my shopping list as well.

Or alternatively..........pay an expert to do it. They will do a better job in half the time and generally a fraction of the grief...........but it's always a good idea to try it for yourself to know the process and time involved. About half way through you'll start saying to yourself.........."what was I thinking?" :)

And as the others say...........don't go near it with a buffing wheel as you'll kill it quicker than lightning. This is also pretty much true of most things as well.

Cheers
Andrew
 

pilkguns

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I hate to disagree with you Tim, but guns are buffed quite regularly, both new at the factory and reblueing by gunsmiths to clean up somebodys prized shooting iron . It's hard to say, but I would guess at least 50% of the latter is done badly, and is exactly what gives "re-blueing" a bad name. I would say that all factory new guns are buffed, except the extreme custom projects. Octagonal barrels were routinely buffed with a hard felt wheel, that won't round the edges. but if you get it on there wrong, it will cut almost like a grindstone.

A good buff job takes a lot of setup, with dedicated wheels for each grit and a lLOT of practice to buff without over buffing and ruining a gun. The best tutorial you could get on buffing is in Brownell' book, "Gunsmith Kinks" a believe that the buffing info is in Volume One.

For an engraver, that wants to work on the best canvas, I agree that it needs to polished with sandpaper and flats, because there is no way you can get the practical experience to buff something correctly. I hear it takes Colt or S&W three years or so to get a master buffer trained.
 
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MICHAEL

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I appreciate all the great info. I know I'm taking on alot. I got started with assembling knives from Jantz with custom handles. Then I got into guns and grip making and soon realized how good it made me feel to make something beautiful. I started engraving and woodcarving to beautify my work. I also get immense joy from drawing. I still want to learn blueing among other things to enhance my work. This is my passion, my hobby. I've set a time limit for myself to learn and hopefully master these skills. To the end of my life!:banana:
Thanks again for the leads on the DVD'S. I'll try to get a good camera this year so I can start to post some pictures.
 

Tim Wells

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I hate to disagree with you Tim, but guns are buffed quite regularly, both new at the factory and reblueing by gunsmiths to clean up somebodys prized shooting iron . It's hard to say, but I would guess at least 50% of the latter is done badly, and is exactly what gives "re-blueing" a bad name. I would say that all factory new guns are buffed, except the extreme custom projects. Octagonal barrels were routinely buffed with a hard felt wheel, that won't round the edges. but if you get it on there wrong, it will cut almost like a grindstone.

A good buff job takes a lot of setup, with dedicated wheels for each grit and a lLOT of practice to buff without over buffing and ruining a gun. The best tutorial you could get on buffing is in Brownell' book, "Gunsmith Kinks" a believe that the buffing info is in Volume One.

For an engraver, that wants to work on the best canvas, I agree that it needs to polished with sandpaper and flats, because there is no way you can get the practical experience to buff something correctly. I hear it takes Colt or S&W three years or so to get a master buffer trained.

You didn't disagree with me Scott, you educated me that's all. I strive to be dead accurate with anything I post here but I'm bound to be mistaken sooner or later. Thanks for the fetchin' up. It makes sense with a hard felt wheel rather than a muslin buffing wheel. The factories have guys that all they do is polish. Stands to reason there's more to it than most think. I was going on what I saw on that Turnbull video which didn't cover buffing as I recall. See you next week.
 

kcstott

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For one lets get it straight here. There is a difference between buffing and polishing. The proper definition is as follows.

Buffing removes near zero material and is only used to brighten the surface of the part. You can buff parts by hand with a rag or a micro fiber cloth or on a loose muslin wheel. Great care needs to be taken when using a wheel as it can round corners and dish out holes.

Polishing on the other hand can and does remove considerable material. You can polish parts by hand using sand paper, die sinker stones, honing stones, and wheels.
Again great care must be taken not to round off corners or dish out holes.

Now for a basic tutorial.

wheels come in three basic types.
Loose, sewn, and felt,
Loose wheel are layers of muslin cloth stitched around the center hole only.
They are used to rough polish a part as they have little form and shape they will wrap around any surface and round corners badly.

Sewn wheels are layers of muslin cloth sewn out to the very edge of the wheel to add support and form to the wheel. These are used for medium finishes on round surfaces. They can round off corners but being stitched it is harder for the wheel to deform.

Felt wheel come in soft, medium, and hard,
Soft being used for rough polishing, Medium for medium finishes and hard for mirror finishes and keeping the edges and corner square.
Use one wheel for each grit you can not use a different grit on the same wheel unless it is a more course grit but what ever grit you put on it that is what it will be forever.

I use Polish O Ray by brownells and it is just about the best compounds I've ever used.
Wide variety of grits from 240 to 500 and then 555 black, gray, and white.
The numbered grits are just the same as aluminum oxide sanding paper finish. 555 being a bit different. Black I'd say is like a 800 grit finish, gray would be a 1200 to 1500 grit finish and white will produce a mirror finish.

Other basics are always work from the lowest grit to the highest grit in steps being sure you remove all lines from the previous grit. To do this polish a part in one direction then when you change grits polish at about 60 degrees to the lines you just polished. This will allow you to see the previous line disappear as you go. Again polish in steps. There is no fast way to a perfect finish. The time you spend polishing and the time you spend at each grit will pay off in the end. Take your time and be patient.

Now there is a feel that needs to be developed as well and it is basically this. When roughing you can be aggressive but as you are nearing your finished product you need to be more and more gentle as you go until as in a mirror finish you are just tickling the part with the wheel.

Polishing is a developed skill all to its self. And it takes time to learn to control the part and the wheel to avoid that melted look.

Look up the polishing instructions for Brownells Polish O Ray It will give you more details then I can type here.

But that is the basics.
 
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Peter E

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I was a bit confused earlier in this thread, as living near Hartford CT, I know some people that worked for Colt. My brother was a "polisher". I don't know a LOT about what the job entailed, but they got paid by what they completed and being good meant more $$$.

They had various wheels and compounds and one of the skills was to have your wheels dressed just right.
 

kcstott

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In following up. The above post mentioned dressed wheels.

This is critical to having a good finish. Just imagine a grinding wheel that is out of round. It will bounce on the part. Well what do you thing happens with a polishing wheel especially the felt ones. Same thing they will bounce and leave ripples in the finish.

Forgot to mention that. Sorry.

As for skill involved Yeah I would bet three plus years to get it good enough to produce a finished gun worthy of the name Colt or Smith and Wesson.
It is a skill set all to it's own. just like being a welder or a machinist.
Kerry
 

BJREBUCK

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Michael,
In the book "A History of Colt Firearms" there is a description of the polishing and
buffing of their guns at the factory. It describes a process of turning wooden wheels,
glueing wet leather on them and then, when dry, shaping them and coating them with the various grits of polishing compounds. This was done to have a set of wheels for each and every different model of gun they produced. The picture of their "Wheel Room"
as it was called shows hundreds of wheels mounted on long shafts in a very large room.
I suppose the felt wheels we use today weren't available in those days.
It also mentions the many years it would take to train up a master polisher.
I have a large Baldor buffer in my shop and it is ,though useful, the least used piece of equipment I have. I do all polishing by hand and only use the buffer to blend in the polishing marks. The above mentioned videos will put you on the right track. I have seen them both and they are very well done. The importance of doing this correctly can't be stressed enough. It will really affect the appearance of the engraving.
Brian
 

Barry Lee Hands

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Brian, you have some good info there.
When I visited Colts old Hartford plant about 20 years ago, they still used dressed leather and felt wheels. There was an old black gentleman who seemed to be the only one who could still dress the wheels, and he explained it to me, much as you describe.
In both the Colt and Winchester factories the parts were machined, and then usually belt sanded, and then dressed wheel polished from the 1800's through the 1980's or so.
There was vistually no hand work and these were among the best polish and buff jobs ever done. The workmen would stand at the same machines buffing and polishing every day for thirty years or more. And the results were as good or better than you can do with stones and paper today.
However, today we have few people with the skills required and as my good friend Barroclough rightly says, more guns today are ruined than improved by buffing, because we have so few expert buffers.
 
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Michael, couple of pointers. There is a wheel dressing tool, sort of a rake looking affair, to freshen the surface of your wheel before adding any more compound. Also, keep each tube of compound, and the tube of wheel treatment each in a zip-lock bag, air removed, in the freezer. Apply to the wheel while turning and the friction will melt the compound onto the surface, then let it air dry. You can't keep the compound from slinging around when applying, so allow for that. Don't even think about not freezing the compound as it is soft and will sling all over, also will dry out quickly and become unusable. Here endeth the lesson.
 

JJ Roberts

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Last month I received the parts of a Fox C Grade Double Gun. The gunsmith that sent it to me told me that he was going to take care of all the polishing before I did the engraving. He used a buffer, dished out 2 screw holes on the trigger guard, dished out the screw hole on the trigger plate, rounded off a lot of the sharp edges. I had to go in there with a file, Arkansas stones, and wet & dry paper to recover the mess that this gunsmith made. When you are working on these classic guns, you have maintain the contours and the sharp edges. I have 3 jars filled with Arkanasas stones soaking with kerosene to keep them clean..when block sanding & using the automotive paper I also soak that in kerosene which keeps the paper from clogging..you'll get more mileage out of it. I do all my own bluing..hot, slow rust, and nitre. There are no short cuts when it comes to polishing and restoration work..that is why I do all my own hand polishing.

JJ Roberts
http://www.jjrobertsengraver.com
 

monk

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SOMETYMES it's best to let experts do what they do. they usually don't try to do what we do !
 

claro

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If you look up american gunsmithing institute ( agi ) phone
800 797 0867 they have a cd called professional blueing
it covers mostly polishing and buffing of firearms, pistols
rifles and shotguns. I do gun blueing and I believe this cd
is very good. It will save you alot of time from trial and error.
I hope this helps
 

Kevin P.

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Just to echo what you say Barry; many people think anyone can polish. Not so!
My experience is in jewelry and it takes a great deal of skill to polish metal properly. Inexperience can really screw things up.

Leather on wood provides a hard unyielding surface and the leather a carrying surface for the for the polishing or cutting compound. The hard surface helps keep edges sharp.
Kevin P.
 

Kevin P.

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Freezing compounds is a new one on me. Usually if compound is flying off the wheel it's an indication of applying too much compound to the wheel.
Kevin P.
 

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