Leave/Scroll Shading Question?

mdengraver

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Are there any tutorials or would anyone be willing to write a tutorial discussing an approach to shading decorative designs such as leaves/scrolls.
What I'm looking for is someone to explain how they approach shading with an imaginary light source to give a realistic rendering that can be engraved. It's still a mystery to me how such beautiful work is interpreted, then rendered, and finally engraved on the metal in such a convincing manner.
 

pilkguns

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It's just a matter of knowing where your light source is coming from, and shading appropiately. Get a copy of Florid Victorian Ornament, its a Dover book. The vast majority of scrolls in it are shaded this way.
 

mdengraver

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Pilkuns This is Where I'm Coming From

I have that book but I don't want to copy. I want to understand it so my shading comes from my own inspiration.
 

John B.

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Scott is right. That is a wonderful book for anyone needing shading help based on light direction.
If you study this book it's a great tutorial and you will understand the principal of shading with directional light.
There is no need to copy it. Just use it as a tutorial for understanding and inspiration.

Not all firearms engraving relies on overall directional light as used in painting etc.
Some very fine work only considers the light to give form to each element, tendril and leaf without regard to a single source of light.

Sam has some great demo's of shading and Ron's book does too.
I think shading has a never ending learning curve for most people. It's best to start simple and let it evolve with time and experience.
Three or four lines properly placed are better than than many poorly placed ones.
Just my thinking.
 
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mdengraver

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Thanks John!

That's what I wanted to know if the light source had to be consistent throughout the shading in engraving. Your saying for decorative shading in engraving that is not necessarily the case.
 

mtgraver

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I understand the desire to understand shading, that is where I've been concentrating my efforts. The issue I have is seeing the image in my mind of what I want the scroll/vine to look like. I'm beginning to see clearer where the lines should lay to get that effect of movement, rolling, turning, flipping of the leaves. So from that perspective I will look at a plant and figure out how I would shade that image if it were 2 dimensional. The books mentioned will show how the shade lines as they should be drawn. No need to copy anything..........draw a leaf/vine and shade like the one part of a particular image in one of those books (one that suits your fancy)and see if that gives you the effect you're after. Well that's sort of how I've taught myself to do shading.
It's a venture we all will take to become a qualified engraver.
Diligence my friend, it will click one day.
Mark
 

Christopher Malouf

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Absolutely!! .. without question .... the Dover books on Victorian ornament are the best books to learn from.

In reference to John's statement:

"Some very fine work only considers the light to give form to each element, tendril and leaf without regard to a single source of light."

This is also the best way to train yourself. By considering each "element" individually, shading can be broken down into what amounts to nothing more than a process that is replicated throughout the design. As a whole, the design becomes dimensional as though it were being hit with ambient light.

I do what I call "splitting the difference" shading. I cut my force lines including any lines that represent a fold in a leaf first. That sub-divides each "element" into sub-sections. From there I split the difference as I add each shading line. If your design is structurally correct, then the lines will converge and terminate where they are supposed to .... if not, you'll know because the shade lines will not find their way home so-to-speak and you'll have to do something creative to make it look right. With this approach, you can achieve all of your shading with straight lines. For shades of gray you can not achieve with straight lines alone, you can cross cut after all of your straight cuts are done. Cross cuts need to be done deliberately and sparingly otherwise they will look like you took a "short-cut". The softness (or hardness) of the subject depends upon the graver you use. That could be anything from a bulino line cutting tool to a 116 degree graver. Plunging the narrower gravers much deeper as the line progresses.

If you dissect one of the leaves in the one of the floral patterns in the Dover books, you'll see what I mean. Very long lines that taper or converge are all placed deliberately and not indiscriminately. Also keep in mind that the Dover book illustrations are either bank-note or intaglio engraving plates. Shading for the human eye as opposed to the printing press gives you an unlimited number of more possibilities ... in other words, you can learn the process from the books then take it a lot farther.


Chris
 
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Mario Sarto

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Here are some very simple thoughts from me.

In picture one you see a flat, convex and a concave surface. They have all the same number of shading lines. On the flat they are all thin. On the convex the thickness grow to middle. On the concave it is opposite.
So depth is just an illusion.

In picture two convex and concave are together.

In picture three i add some more.

In picture four i add the surface line (outline).

In picture five i add some perspective - we have a good illusion, now.

In picture six is, what we do: tapering the shading lines - much more illusion.

Hope this helps a little :)
 

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kcstott

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At our home page Igraver.com Sam has many tutorials posted. with some shading tips.
At Lindsay's sight go to video and check out the demo/tutorials he has posted. Great detail on form and shading. You tube is not a great source but there is some stuff there that show shading with a graver. I'm still trying to layout and engrave a decent looking scroll No luck yet but I'm working on it.

An other option is a basic art book or sketch book.
Shading is one of the first things taught in an art class. Not that I'm an artist by any stretch.
 

John B.

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Chris,
Lots of good stuff and well said.

Mario,
Outstanding and clear pictures.
May I ask.
Were the pictures composed in Corel or another computer program?

Best regards,
John.
 

Andrew Biggs

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Here is something I wrote on shading some time ago.

One of the things I can highly recommend is that you look very carefully at someone's work like Sam Alfano or Phil Coggan...........draw a leaf and copy the shading they have done with pencil and paper. Practice drawing it till it becomes ingrained in your memory.

But only do one leaf at a time. If you try and take in everything all at once then you just get overwhelmed with information and it becomes too much for you. Break it all down to one single leaf at a time.

Observe how the lines all converge in on one another and that they follow the direction and contour of the leaf. Their spacing is neat and uniform and it has the appearance of light, medium and dark. Where objects overlap the top part generates a shadow on the bottom part and this gives depth. Quite often things like this can become very subtle.

Once you have got it with pencil and paper then start cutting and practicing on some scrap metal and the effect will become more dramatic as it gets smaller.....but keep breaking it down to just one leaf at a time.

Cheers
Andrew
 

Mario Sarto

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Were the pictures composed in Corel or another computer program?
You are right - it's Corel. There are mainly four things i remember thinking of this shading-topic: somewhere Sam wrote, he can shade much better on the piece than with a pencil on paper and if he doesn't see the shading in his mind, he don't engrave the hole thing. Hope i get there some day :)
In the second book of Ron are pretty good examples of shading, i like to point out the section of "focal points" - very awe-inspiring to me.
On his DVD about Bulino Engraving Christian DeCamillis describe how to give form and shape by using lines very clear. That is a great help to understand - not Bulino only!
The fourth thing was a discussion on this forum about the time it needs to have a good achievement using lines economical. This last point is the hardest to me, because it needs a lot of experience, overshading is easy...

Andrew, i bookmarked your Tutorial again (lost it somehow) - great help!
Mario
 
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If you can figure out what to search for, this place is a treasure trove of information.
The problem I was having with shading, I believe came from the foundations of my scroll design- mostly my leaves. Ron Smith told me this and he was absolutely right.
I found this thread which explains the importance of the flow of all the lines in a scroll and the effect this foundation has on shading.
Sam has some great illustrations and Weldon sums it up in his post with "common point of origin: one that leads the eye"
http://www.igraver.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5368&highlight=common+errors+scroll+design
I suspect the placement of shading will be much easier now that I can see the impact of visual flow. I hope the shading will become a much more logical choice. The simplicity of scroll work is deceiving. Trying to get this in my head is one of the hardest things I have ever done.
I hope this helps you as I don't really know what particular aspect of shading you are looking for. When I saw these posts, it was like a light bulb in my brain. I know it helps me and thought it worth passing on.
 
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I cut my force lines including any lines that represent a fold in a leaf first. That sub-divides each "element" into sub-sections. From there I split the difference as I add each shading line.

Chris,
Could you do us the favor of posting a few illustrations showing the ideas you just posted? I can see myself thinking I know what you mean but being far off the mark.

Thanks
 

dave gibson

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shading

My thoughts are, creating the illusion of depth or distance, whatever is furthest away or deeper or underneath is darkest. Whatever is closest,higher or ontop is going to be lighter.Simple as that.
 

ChrisB

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Hi Y,All, I had A look at Sam's Thread, Why Havent I seen It Before? #@$$%&
That Is It "Point of Origin" I'm busy with a Folder At the Moment, Printed the Scetches, and Had A Look at My Engraving, Dang!! have to Alter some Curves.!!

Sam,!! You Are The Man!! Thanks from Darkest Africa.!!
 

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