Help for a newby

kcstott

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Sep 20, 2008
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Hello all.
I have not posted in some time as I have not been engraving in some time either. Day job and all.
Anyway I'll be receiving a profit sharing check shortly and would like to get a Lindsay Classic But as of right now I'm having one heck of a time just doing push engraving and I'm not sure if dropping $1200 on a new toy/tool is a good idea.
My #1 problem as of right now is slips. It seems to me if i keep the graver in the steel I'm cutting to deep but then I try to work a little more shallow and zoom there goes the graver.

I'm thinking if all I have to do is guide the tool as opposed to push hard enough to cut steel and guide it maybe this skill will come a little faster.

I'm not too concerned about getting a Airgraver as if it doesn't help me along I can get most of my money back out of it.

Thanks in advance
Kerry
 

Sam

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Kerry: Pneumatic handpieces can increase control and decrease slips, but not eliminate them. At first you'll have to overcome the tendency to push the handpiece and let it do the pushing for you. Bottom line: Handpieces are much easier to control than a push graver and as you gain experience slips will become fewer and fewer.
 

Kevin Scott

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Buying air tool good idea?

Kerry, Since budget is not too much of a factor, the question boils down to: Do you really enjoy engraving and are willing to spend time to get the results you want? If so, buy the tool. What you are going thru with slips is "par for the course".
In the meantime: maybe practice on softer metal. Make sure your geometry is correct. Make sure your graver is sharp. When you slip it is likely that the graver was chipped or not sharp, and if it was sharp and undamaged the slip might have caused it to chip if it was not already. Check point and edges with a 8-10X magnification.
I do not have an air tool, but everyone seems to say the learning curve is faster with one. Good luck. Kevin Scott
 

kcstott

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Sep 20, 2008
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Oceanside CA
I guess I'm trying to fast track this and all on my own to boot. No schools in my area so I'm relegated to the web and James Meek's book for education.
I think I've got the tool geometry taken care of but there is one thing that is not expressed to much on the web or even in meek's book and that is just how sharp a tool needs to be. Once I started polishing the face and primary heels with 1000 grit things became a lot easier to control. Like a hot knife through butter. But I still slip and often so it's getting frustrating. And that's why I walked away for nearly a year. I realize it's practice that i'm lacking I'm just ready to buy a tool and either way I go GRS or lindsay it's going to cost the same. I like the Air graver since it's one universal tool so to speek. I was just wondering am i going to see enough improvement in control to keep me interested. I think you've answered my question. But it's time at the block that will really pay off.

Engraving fascinates me with the artistry involved and the beautiful pieces of work put out. Jewelry, Firearms, etc.
It is something I would love to get good enough to be paid to do it for someone else.

So here's another question. How long did it take each of you who choose to reply to "get it" I realize skill come with time and you should always be learning but there should be some marked point that you can say I went from complete novice to at least an apprentice status.

So how long of regular practice did it take you. two three four year??
I've heard up to five years just to be able to lay down some decent lines

Thanks Again
It's your help that's keeping me interested.
 

Marcus Hunt

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Hi Kerry, as someone who learned his engraving by hand pushing I can sympathise with you. It's not an easy skill to learn. I don't know how long you've been engraving for (as you don't say) but my guess is not very long? As an apprentice I would work a 7 - 8 hour day and during these hours I'd say a that there was a good 75% graver-to-metal contact time. So in an 8 hour days with an hour for lunch the graver was probably cutting metal for 5 hours. That's a long time and I was young but even so I'd say 6 months to a year was building muscle memory.

Think about it, when hand pushing you want the graver to move through the metal in a controlled manner. This entails not only a forward push but also a braking action to stop the graver skidding out of the cut. The upshot of this is the muscles battling against themselves and it takes time for them to learn what to do. Now my bet is a) you are not a 16 year old apprentice who is cutting metal for 5 hours a day. This means it's going to take time for you to learn and it's not going to happen after 6 months of a couple of hours in the evening. You are probably looking at a year + if you were working 7 days a week for 2 hours a day.

Now this time span looks quite scary, as does the dedication, but it can be achieved if your desire is strong enough. If you are looking to become a copper plate or jewellery engraver the muscle memory isn't required as much so the time will be shortened. But if you're looking to engrave steel, amongst which are shotguns and rifles with their rounded shapes, it will definitely take time. The benefits are 1) it's the cheapest form of tooling up as an engraver and 2) if the power/air goes down, you may be able to continue working.

OR you can go the pneumatic route which negates the learning curve of your muscles and allows you to concentrate on graver control. Whilst extremely helpful to the engraver these tools will not make you a good engraver on their own. If you look at Phil Cogan's early pictures of his work you can see that his skill was there pre Airgraver. The guys at Creative Arts use hand push and h&c for their work. Phil Griffnee is an h&c engraver producing outstanding results. Air assistance works for some people but not everyone.

Personally, I love my air assisted tools and wouldn't want to go back but even so I often hand push bulino and even lettering on restoration projects, just to keep my eye in and for a change of pace.
 
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Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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Ksckott, I think 1000 grid for polishing the heel is not fine enough.
The diamond spray I use is 50.000 and 100.000.
The question if the investment will pay you back, only you can answer that.
I learned all about engraving just by visiting this Café for 14 months now, never had a course. But it is not the Cafe that learns, it only can help you with your own learning process.
If you buy air push tools, I suggest you also buy a powerhone or another sharpening system, I have tried to start without, but that does not work so well as the use of the Power hone with dual angle system.

arnaud
 

diandwill

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The first thing that will help is consistent graver geometry. This can be accomplished with the GRS system or the Lindsey system. They both have advantages and disadvantages.
The next most important is training. The Stockton School of engraving is not having classes this yearhttp://www.jewelryartschool.com/, but will do some one on one. You could try a couple of days and see if engraving is something that really grabs you, before spending the big bucks.

If you find you like it, get a system and take a serious course. It will take years off the learning curve, while allowing you to earn a living at something else. If your job will allow you, or if you don't sleep, you may be able to progress almost as fast without the school, but you should buy every book you can get your hands on, Ron Smiths 2 books on scrolls, R L Wilson series of books on engraved guns, the many books on fine gun engraving in the European style and countries, download and print the many books that are available through on-line sources, i.e. the Acanthus Leaf, and the treatises on Monograms.

In short, engraving, if you would be successful, is an all or nothing endeavor. Try it and if you like it commit. If you don't make the full commitment, you can always sell your tools for 1/2 price later.
Will
 

Ron Smith

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Hi Kerry,

The most important tool in your tool chest is your character. Passion for the art is your power, the degree, and speed in which you progress, and diligence is your success.

Consistent, regular, daily, practice. Commitment, determination, tenacity, patience, and endurance against all odds are the character tools that build engravers.

It is not like anything you ever tried to do, and in this fast pace, quick fix, culture it is totally out of place.

Anyway, I wish you luck, and it will only be when you have walked the road of a hammer and chisel and burin engraver, 20,30, or 40 years application, will you begin to understand the full extent of the sacrifices required to prefect this skill................then after you finally, pretty well have it figured out.......you die..........HaHaha...........:shock:........:beat up:........:big grin:

It is a long road................but it is a wonderful, self satisfying ride.

You are training your body to be sensitive to microscopic movements. I think that is almost a miracle. The human hand and psychy is a magnificent creation, don't you think?

It blows my mind just thinking about the power we have in our being.:tiphat:

Good luck,:thumbs up:

Ron S
 

KCSteve

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Looks like the others beat me to the punch but yeah - it's a lot easier technique with air-assist. You can be cutting bad lines in just seconds - that's why they do live demos at shows and encourage people to give it a try.

As Will said, if you don't have one already you must get a sharpening system. The Lindsay system is the simplest to use - just follow the template and the GRS Dual Angle is the most versatile - just dial in the angles. Problem with the Lindsay is when you don't have a template for the point you want and the problem with the Dual Angle is when you don't know the angles.

If you look through the forums you'll notice that used gear seldom sits for long.
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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Scott, thanks for telling me, I did not know. I thought I was also doing normal engraving but never tried to add a heel to my graver using the 600 diamond lap.
arnaud
 

Willem Parel

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Scott what do you mean with "normal engraving" is that gun- and knife engraving in general done in steel so you don't need that brightcut???
I was always thinking that for every job your graver should be polished like a mirror.
Is that overdone ??
Willem
 

kcstott

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Marcus
No I haven't been engraving long at all More off then one over the last year and a half maybe. But in actuality only for a few month total.
I agree the tool won't make the engraver. I'm just looking for something to give me a bit more control. I have a sharpening system on order. I have been using the Lindsay 116 dg Geo for the most part just trying to cut a decent scroll.

To everyone else thanks for the tips and advice I'm just going to sharpen my tools and get cutting. Practice practice practice as they say.
My goal is to be able to engrave firearms In the tradition english style well enough to get paid for my work. I don't expect that to happen over night or over a year. Maybe in say three or four years i can attempt some work of that level on my own rifles and see if it is good enough to demand a price.

Once again thanks this is motivating me to keep at it.
 
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monk

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i advise your first purchase to be a diamond- based sharpening system. tool geometry rules. consistency is a must for you to get the feel for what you're doing, be it manual push, or powered. to cut right, the geometry must be right ! right ? right !
 

kcstott

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I would have to say that tool sharpening is coming along with me. I've got a crocker fixture right now but the Lindsay system is on order.

I've learned to keep the heel short and that has helped but resharpening after every few slips is getting old.
 

pilkguns

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Willem, and Arnaud, I will attempt to answer your questions and Arnaud, yes, I you are right, I should define normal, my bad :^{ since it depends on your perspective. A jewelry engraver or a Western engraver probably thinks what they do is normal.

For me, I think of normal as for gun and knife engraving, in the typical sense, with scrolls and scenes and such. For these cases
It is fine with a 600 or even down to about a 320 equivelant sharpening stone. 600 seems to be the standard set in American when GRS put out there diamond wheels initially and for many years was the only grit available. As I say for gun and knife patterns with scrollwork, this is not only adequate, but I think preffered. The graver cuts fine in the handling and longevity sense, and it leaves a darker “look” in the cut. Maybe a neutral cut as opposed to a highly polished graver that makes all of the cuts “ flash” . because a normal scroll pattern that all lines "flashed" would be very distracting in most patterns. Additionally, the slightly rougher interior of the cut helps hold any blackening compound applied,be it ink or paint, polish residue, or as John B calls it the “dirt of the ages” . Some engravers in recent years have a bright cut flare with a higly polished graver to the leading edges of some leaves in a scroll, that “flash” but this is a relatively new thing and done by few. Also we have seen the development here on this forum of the Roger Bleile/Diane Scalese/Ron Smith bright cut scroll but again it is a new specialty scroll.

For nearly all western style engraving, then the brightest possible cut is the preferred look, with sparkle or flash all over the pattern. But even then, the “flash”is relegated to a particular place within the pattern, it is leaves of the scrolls that flash, and the other cuts, like the wiggle or liner cuts are more neutral.

For jewelry work, be it lettering or decorative, some things require flash and sparkle some things don’t . A script lettering job would look good bright cut, because all of the bright cuts are basically running one direction, but lettering done in Old English would look muddled if all was done in bright cut, so its best to do it with a normal polish graver. Letters or monograms done in closeline would be fine with a normal graver, and in most cases I think preferred.



Now, recently there has been some discussion mostly offline to my knowledge about high polish on the harder carbides like C-max or Carbalt XD. I had a discussion with Chris Decamillus the other day and he was telling me that he thought the higher the polish, the less likely it was to break, because there was no point to start a fracture. This tallied with some experience I recently had touching up some bulino work on a knife that was 58-60 Rockwell, that is harder than most gravers!

So in the case of working on very hard metal with one of the newer tougher carbides, it may benefit you to take the extra time to sharpen and polish to the utmost degree.
 
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kcstott

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Oceanside CA
Success!!!

Well after much persistence I was finally able to cut a few fonts and scrolls (all be it ugly) without a single slip. It felt good to actually make some progress. Tool geometry was an issue I went back resharpened my gravers and reduced the heel to about half of what I had before and also corrected the angle of the heel. This made a huge difference in the control gained and ease of cutting steel.
I've got a long way to go yet but this little bit of progress feels real good.
 
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