Question: working as an engraver

Hi All,

I am interested in getting some information and opinions regarding working for a company as an engraver. I have been engraving in my free time doing small custom jobs. I would really like to engrave full time but need reliable income. Would anyone share with me their experience working for a company? I would love to hear pros, cons, pitfalls and advice. Feel free to pm me if you prefer.

Thanks,
Jason

A couple of pages from my life

Early next morning I left Franca at the motel and arrived at the corporate offices of U.S. Repeating Arms Company with my portfolio of engraved plates. I explained to the receptionist who I was and what I wanted. She in turn brought me to the personnel director’s office. After looking at my work, he contacted the head of the Winchester custom shop, a man named Pardee, who looked at my work and then contacted his boss Mr. Carl Hummel. It was about two hours later that I was offered a job.
“Yes, we need an engraver. You have a job with us,” Carl said.
“What is the salary?” I asked.
I have forgotten the exact amount it was, around $9 or so. I was disappointed. I thought back to school and the bloody boots. I decided to bluff.
“I’m sorry,” I said. “I’m not interested. I already have an appointment with a company in California. I just stopped to see if you were interested in me.”
What did I expect to receive as compensation for my work, the personal director wanted to know. I held my breath for a moment and then asked for $30,000 per year. They asked me leave the meeting. Richard Pelton, president and CEO of U.S. Repeating Arms Company came into the conference room about that time and shook hands with me. After a careful study of my portfolio, he explained employment at that salary would have to be a corporate decision. I wanted to know when I could have an answer. After a brief meeting, they told me that the decision would take a week. A week of meals and motels would quickly eat up all of Franca’s money. I bluffed again.
“I’m sorry. I cannot stay that long. I have to be in California in a few days.” The truth was there were no appointments with anyone. If I lost this gamble, I could lose it all. I had gone too far to back down.
“Where are you staying?” President Pelton asked.
Not wanting to say I was staying at a motel 2 ½, answered, “In a small motel near town.”
“Would you consider postponing your trip to California until we can make a decision if Winchester puts you up in the Park Plaza Hotel? Of course we’ll pick up all the expenses.” I explained that I had a friend with me. “Not a problem,” he told me. I do not think I have ever had a bigger smile on my face.
“Yes sir,” I answered, shook hands all around and went back to get Franca and tell her the greatest news. When we had returned the car, we checked into the hotel laughing and dancing in the lobby as though we were at a carnival. When the desk clerk said “Welcome to the Park Plaza Mr. Joseph, have a wonderful stay” Franca whispered, “I’m so glad I met you Amore.”

From my journal:
September 18th, 1982 Hartford, Connecticut
Since arriving here, Franca and I have been guests of U.S. Repeating Arms Company. We are staying in the nicest hotel room I have ever been in, in my life. The room cost about $145 per day and my bill here for at least four days is going to be close to $600---more money than I have earned in the last year.

A few days later, the personnel director came to the hotel with an employment contract for me to look over. Winchester had met my salary demand, made me a part of the company’s executive staff, in charge of the engraving department, and had given me the title of Master Engraver. In addition to all of this, there was $1000 check to help us settle in. After, the excitement that I felt over those last few days passed, the cold realization that I had never engraved an actual rifle replaced it. I was cocky, proud of myself, and quickly developed a bit of an attitude.
I returned to the Company to deliver the signed contract to Mr. Hummel, who gave me complete tour of the factory, and introduced me to all the employees of the custom shop. To my surprise there was a woman working in the engraving room her name was Pauline Murray. Obviously, she was not at all happy with the idea of having a new boss. I looked at the work she was doing and immediately thought I would be able to help her improve her skills. Then I met Bruno Pardee, head of the custom shop, who also was not thrilled with the fact that I was receiving a salary higher than his, and that I worked directly for Carl Hummel. Not that I really cared, I was too excited and proud of my accomplishments to even consider the pettiness and pitfalls of working in a unionized company,
My presence in the long, four-story, brick building that housed the custom shop for the famous Winchester 21 shotguns was quickly noted. Soon the entire floor knew everything about me, especially my salary. This caused some friction between me and several other employees who had worked their way up through the rank and file to end up working at the most prestigious part of the Winchester Gun Company.
The custom shop was where the wealthy would spend their money. At the time of my employment, a model 21-shotgun base price was $10,000. The same weapon engraved with gold inlay sold for $25,000. The company expected the engraver to finish the work in approximately 130 hours.
I had a meeting with Carl Hummel shortly after my arrival. Carl was a very kind man with a sharp business sense. He outlined for me his idea. He wanted to have ready for exhibition at the Dallas Shot Show at least three engraved rifles and one shotgun.
The date of that exhibition was January 11, exactly one year since I had gotten on the plane headed for Italy. I was a very proud and happy man. Franca and I had grown closer together. The upcoming exhibition was consuming me. Thousands of people would see my engraving work at the biggest sporting goods show in the United States. How so very different things were now. The Company decided I would do engraving exhibitions for the public during the three-day show. Everybody was going to be there. Many of my Italian friends, fellow engravers from Gardone, Maestro’s Renato and Giulio, Signor Giovanelli, engravers from Colt, the most famous engravers in the world would be there and I was part of it.[From the book A Gifted Man]

don't stop now. you have my interest up

If you don't own a copy of Joseph's book, A Gifted Man, it is a a worthwhile study for every one who wants to be a full time engraver.

It's not listed on Amazon- suggestion for where it might be????

I agree with Scott. I found it very candid and most interesting. I wish more of the general public could read it to learn of the struggles of learning engraving and making a living at it. Here is a link to buy it:
http://www.iuniverse.com/Bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000055357

To answer Jason's original question, one must be skilled, fast and efficient and remember that the employer is looking for high output and rapid turn around. The type of engraving where the scrollwork has 40 fine shade lined in a 1 mm leaf or a million bulino dots in the face of a tiger will not cut it with most employers. The high art type of engraving is reserved for the very few who have an international reputation and connections to the top gunmakers.

CRB

Cloudy said:

It's not listed on Amazon- suggestion for where it might be????

Click to expand...

Not sure HOW you looked on Amazon, but it is there....

http://www.amazon.com/Gifted-Man-Me...=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262646870&sr=1-6

Wonderful start; sounds like an interesting life.
I'm not looking for a job, but I'm buying the book.
Kevin P.

Great story Joseph, I guess I'll have to get the book to read the rest.:thumbs up: and good luck with your search Jason.

Kevin

Roger, I'm glad you answered the original question somewhat and I agree wholeheartedley about the skill required from a job shop. In fact, I think they apply to most engravers starting out, finding a customer base to pay for finely shaded lines or bulino is going to be a long struggle that is marketing intense. Finding people to plump down 200-300 dollars for some big scrolls on their favorite gun won't require much more than a few displays at the local gun shows.

Jason, it is a very difficult question, as the vast majority of engravers on here have not worked for a shop per se, unless it was in jewelry store where most likey their foremost function was as a jewelers. Engraving at some sort of printmaking establishment such would require some very fine skills and be a very rare position these days. Actually I think employment as an engraver alone, is going to be a very unique position in todays enviroment. Do you have a potential job offer of some sort?

Roger Bleile said:

The high art type of engraving is reserved for the very few who have an international reputation and connections to the top gunmakers.

CRB

Click to expand...

With that burned into one's mind, why bother to study, learn and practice the advanced techniques with the desire and passion to improve his station in the engraving world. Someone's got to step up to the plate and replace the engravers who have either retired or decided to teach for a living.

With all due respect Roger, that's the most discouraging statement I've read on this forum in awhile. Sure, it's spot on ... especially when working for someone else in a sweat shop but as far as I am concerned, "millions of dots" is the ONLY way to get out of the sweat shop.

Chris,

Jason's original question was about EMPLOYMENT as an engraver not being a freelance artist. Even the British, Italian, Austrian, and German gunmakers use mostly outworkers for all of their high end work with a few exceptions. Where in the US can an engraver find employment as a high end engraver? Perhaps Colt but even they send their most ornate jobs to Francolini, Dubber, et al.

As far as millions of dots, there are some of us (Claus Willig for example) who do not think that Fracassi type bulino work is the ultimate in engraving. But I conceed that that is a matter of taste.

I could write an entire thread on this subject and I might but I think it is getting OT in this one.

Roger

Roger,

I reserve the right to disagree, here, now or in any thread

I don't see anything "OT" about your implication that high-end work is an improbability when working for a manufacturer or factory.

In fact, the thread starter never stated what type of engraving he was looking to do. Firearms is an assumption made only by those who have responded. If he went to work for one of the engraving firms in New England, or Tiffany's or even one of the championship ring companies for lettering, I guarantee it will be some time before he is allowed to engrave anything of significant value. That "anything" will more than certainly be worth far more than any firearm currently produced in the United States.

As far as I'm concerned, Joseph has nailed the answer .... that being: How bad do you want it and how hard are you willing to work to get it? Freelance engraver or not. That is the only factor that will decide his ultimate success in engraving.

Jason. Here's my 2 cents worth:
Begin with the end in mind---in other words, what do you want and what are you willing to do to get it?
That is a pretty simple question. (I said "simple", not "easy")
I prefer to do work for a company than to work for a company.
I've worked for somebody else for far too long to go work for somebody else again. I needed full control to exploit my talents for my profit. I know that when I become an employee, they will exploit my talents for their profit.
Been there,done that.

I designed my business around this one principle question:

"What is the perfect business scenario?"

The answer(s) I came up with is thus:
1.)Work at home. That's where I feel the most comfortable.
2.)No employees.
3.)Little or No overhead. My tools are paid for
4.)No inventory. Let's just sell my skill. Let my customer provide the inventory.
5.)Work mostly for private businesses as an independent contractor. That way,I do not need to keep rigid "hours of operation" and I eliminate being a sales tax collection agency for the state of Ohio because businesses are tax-exempt.
(I presently do work for 8 different companies---all as an independent contractor.)

To be somewhat successful, you'll need to figure out a little more than just "wanting to become a full time engraver", but that's where a lot of us started.
After I designed my "perfect business scenario", it still took two years to make it happen.

When you think about it, NOTHING really needs to be engraved.
I have a skill and I sell it. I create value. Value creates demand.
Pretty simple on the face....but I've done my homework and I've never worked so hard in my life, until I started to work for me.
I understand that being self-employed isn't for everyone, but "I dare you to believe in yourself....."

Great stuff! You all have great points.

P.S. Joseph's book rocks!!! and yes I know you can get it for free, but we should all buy it! and support him! ..... I did and would again. It's worth every penny and more.

If anybody feels discouraged, then they need only look at knifeolgy.com for inspiration. Somebody is making a living at high end engraving. Its like the lottery, you can't win if you don't play(actually better than the lottery because you can help your own luck considerably by practicing and studying).

Thank you for this part of your story Joseph

arnaud

If you've got jewelry engraving skills there are opportunities working for a jewelry store or manufacturing jeweler. But it has to be a store that has the clientele. Your chances are better at a high-end shop as opposed to one that sells low-end.

A jewelry shop will expect you to crank out work quickly. They're famous for push push push of their workers, and it can be a nightmare during the holiday season, but it can also mean good money. Don't let that scare you.

If this interests you, then start sizing up the jewelry stores in your area. Show them examples of your work. Perhaps work for them from your home at first. Show them that you're interested in helping them build their line of engraved rings. If they know they can depend on you and that you're seriously interested in growing their business, you may get a job offer. Then again, you may prefer to work from home and invoice them like many of us do. There are plus and minus sides to both ways. Add stonesetting skills and watch the demand for you spike. The more you can do the more valuable you'll be. If you can do really nice engraving and are a proficient stonesetter, you have a much greater chance of employment.

Some of my students have been very successful in obtaining employment in retail jewelry stores and manufacturing companies. Some are treated very well and have excellent employers. Like every other occupation, some are treated poorly and they're looking for something better.

As for gun and knife engraving, I think most opportunities will be working independently as opposed to working for a company.

Brian I think you've nailed every point. I'm a studio lapidary/goldsmith; meaning almost everything I do is on 'spec'. But rather than doing work as a independent contractor for a retailer, I'm also the retailer by going to different shows across the country and selling my work.
This is not directed at you but whoever asked the question. It's another alternative to those who work best by themselves. I personally like the contact with the final owner of the work.
But, again for the person who asked, it was a long tough road to get to the point of it being a viable business. Beyond the skills required to produce work one must have considerable skills in conducting a business. But it's the most rewarding thing I've ever done. My experience is in jewelry but I think this business model could work for an engraver who is able to produce an engraved 'product', not just engraving service..
Kevin P.
www.kevinpatrickkelly.com

I wanted to thank everyone for their responses. The diversity of content was thought provoking. I realize my post was a bit vague but this did draw the input on different types of engraving. To get a little more specific, I realize I prefer a workplace environment over work at home. I like having a schedule and coworkers. I find it challenging to manage my time at home due to living in a busy household where there are so many distractions.

It is my goal at some point in the future to be able to do high end engraving whether it is as an individual or for a company. But right now I don’t believe I have the need or the skills to work at that level. I know I will have to do a billion more cuts to come close to the expertise of those who have shared thoughts with me. So even if I’m cutting the same scroll or letters everyday it is in the field that I want to be in. For right now, I can express my creative desires at home while improving my skills that will enable me to do high end work.

Love of working in metal and to be a “full time engraverâ€￾ is driving me and all the different contributors will help me get there in a venue that fits me.

Joseph: thank you for your contribution and I look forward to reading your book which I have on order now.

Once again thanks to all.
Jason