100 year old sailing trophies

kellsbells

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I get to hand engrave the names of this years winners on these sailing trophies. Both are solid sterling silver. The bowl was donated by the Pillsbury family in 1885 and the larger trophy was donated in 1907. The hand engraving for the first 100 years is exquisite! I'm sorry I can't get better photos but I thought you all would enjoy seeing them anyway.
If anybody has any advise or encouragement I'd appreciate it. The largest trophy has a solid oak base and weighs about 40 pounds. In 2006 somebody used a vibrating engraver to scrawl the winner's name so I figure I can't do any worse than that.:eek:

Thanks, Kelly
 

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monk

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what an honor to be the "chosen" one. you must feel quite excited to be a part of this project. i know i would. by all means, send a foto of your work, if you can.
 

Kevin P.

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Kelly, I have a suggestion for lighting the work. Use sheet foam to place between the light source and the object to diffuse the light. I would love to see what the trophy looks like. As is it's difficult to see.
Kevin P.
 

Mike Cirelli

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I just did a sterling silver loving cup it was about 20" high by 16" wide last month. I don't know how big what your doing is but it looks big. I have to say it was not the most fun I ever had. It was so big I couldn't swing it around for full circular cut. Almost had to stand up over it and reach for the cut. I used one of those grocery store reusable bags with a couple bags of rice in it and set it on my turntable to swing it.
 

KCSteve

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If you don't have something translucent then you can also bounce the light off of something white to get a nice, smooth, even light.

One of the main things is to try to have all of the reflection be 'white' - you may have to cut a small hole in a sheet of foamcore to stick your camera's lens through.
 

rod

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Kelly,

This will be quite a commission to undertake, especially when there is 100 years of high class hand push engraving already on the trophies to compare, so best get it right!

When you say hand engrave, will you be push graving or air power? If you are to push grave silver on a curve surface, best to completely dress rehearse the complete thing on copper with approximately the same curvature.

As to graver angles, after revisiting the 'no heel' European graver geometry while doing Martin Strolz' class, I was surprised how well his geometry worked in hand push with less chance of slipping ..... using 20 degree lift angle on bottom, 110 degree included angle, 45 degree front face, and no heel. When push graving silver, the American uniform heeled graver, which works so well on air assist, will slip more easily than the no heel graver, unless you are a seasoned pro.

Be absolutely sure your practice run on copper at least matches, or betters, the old engravings before you do the real job, as there ain't no goin' back.

Good luck, and maybe post your results?

Happy New Year!

Rod
 

Kevin P.

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Rod perhaps you could clarify "20 degree lift angle on bottom".
I'm assuming we're talking single point. If so, I understand the 110 degree included angle and the 45 degree face. But wouldn't the 20 degrees on the bottom constitute a heel?
I guess I'm missing something here and hope you can help me out.
Kevin P.
 

Kevin Scott

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Rod says "No Heel". I think he means no parallel heel. By "American uniform heeled graver" I think he means the "Lindsay" geometry. Hope Rod tells us more.
I only do push engraving and lately have been trying the parallel heel after only using the traditional geometry. The parallel heel is great for some things. Very nice hairlines and great on sharp turns. But harder to control and alot more "push-force" needed since width of cut is more dependent on depth of cut than traditional geometry. Which makes control even harder.
I have been coming to the same conclusion as Rod and have switched back to traditional geometry.
Thanks Kelly for posting these pictures. I really like looking at lettering. I am hoping you will post some more pictures after trying the photo advise given. Kevin Scott
 
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MJConte

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The only thing I have to add is that these are family heirlooms that will be admired for generations. Here is the one my wife "found" in her great aunts attic.





it's not huge or very fancy but she was excited about it and did all the research she could, including finding the pictures of the ship "AWA" the history of her captain and the final disposition of the company that made the silver platter and of course the fire that consumed the original yacht club building.

You should hear her tell it. :tiphat:
 

rod

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Regarding my post on 'no heel' gravers

Yes the included angle single point is 110 degrees... that would be, set your universal fixture at 35 degrees each side of zero. 45 degree face is pretty normal.

I do not mean a "Lindsay uniform heel", I mean no heel.

Usually in heeled gravers you have an underside lift of about 2 degrees on your post angle, then add a further 15 or 20 degrees for the tiny heel, whether standard heel or uniform heel, but I repeat, no heel. So raise the post angle to 20 degrees to grind that high lift angle, no heel, and start engraving. You will need to get used to a slightly different hand position, but it is remarkable how fast you will get used to it. Phil C and Martin have written on this Forum on the subject, and probably both these masters hand sharpen.

As an aside, whereas I very much respect Steve Lindsay's excellent and original air graver designs, I own two, as well as GRS and Ngraver units I am puzzled by the uniform heel claiming to be patented, since I have used uniform heel for decades, and it must have been used from time to time for centuries. Under the lupe, one simply put the edge of your graver face edge flat on the stone and gave a few strokes resulting in a unifirm heel? Granted, Steve nicely describes the geometry and accurate ways of lapping this style of heel, and I have no need to raise any objections to it being patented, just puzzled.

best

Rod
 
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Kevin P.

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Rod, I think I now understand: just raise the post angle to 20º when doing the 35º on each side.

I too am puzzled by Lindsay patent. I met Don Glaser when I first took an interest in engraving. He described a uniform heel in detail and how it happened to come about. I still have the sheet describing the process. This was before I had heard of Steve Lindsay.
That said, I admire and own a Lindsay 'artisan' hand piece.
Kevin P.
 

Ron Smith

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Up until my generation, the angles that were used in gravers were not known precisely. It was all done with trial and error and experience. Hard way to learn. Tool geometry is tool geometry, and once you discover what that is and the requirements are met, you can do it any number of ways.

Not until the calibrated system which Don Glaser created did any engravers use a set down system other than maybe the dowel and stone. For points varying for special purposes, they were created right on the spot.

They looked at successful gravers and copied what they saw. That was all they could do. I still sharpen by hand for the speed of it, but it took me about 7 or 8 years to get to where I could do it quickly and consistantly. Before getting that experience, I spent a lot of time sharpening tools to get the proper angles.

The 110/120 degree is not new. It has been around for centuries, but those old engravers probably couldn't tell you what angles they were. I never payed much attention to it myself. I just did what I knew worked by feel. Most of the older engravers (hammer/chisel and burin) know of what I speak.

Once the geometry is learned and muscle memory takes over, it is quite quick compared to the calibrated systems of today.

You guys don't know how easy you got it............HeeHee

Hooray for Don Glaser.........

Ron S
 

rod

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Thank you for this perspective, Ron!

Both the universal graver fixture and power lap of GRS, and Steve Lindsay's precise templates are a great boon to get one going with time proven shapes that work and give you a feel, after that hand sharpening is fast as you know what you are then after.

When I was wandering in the wilderness of how a graver should feel when cutting nicely, I tried a lot of ideas. Finally, I found a set of antique hand burins for sale in a Glasgow antique shop, and pounced on them, then studied their geometry, albeit all hand sharpened, but it was a start. I kept them as a reference and made up copies.

Kevin ..... correct. Very easy to grind one up and give it a shot. The tip will look like a European bulino tool with 110 included angle instead of 70 or 80 degrees included. Oh, wait a minute .... Chris C does now show us that great bulino can be done with a 105 or 110 degree included and a bright lapped small heel! Confusing isn't it, except that there is no substitute for good art and good execution.

Getting back to the Lindsay templates for sharpening, I compliment Steve for the ease with which a graver can be re-heeled with great precision, as a touch up. Also, the recommended extension for his preferred lift angle happens when the graver blank is 1.25 inches extended in the fixture, but simply shorten that distance, even to .5 inches, and the 'lift angle' is greater.

Being a tool and fixture admirer, I have both systems and also hand sharpen. The GRS fixtures will do any geometry and work well for rounded heel, so useful in flats for bright cutting. Again, rounded heel can be done nicely and fast by hand.

If you read my posted essay on Martin Strolz' GM class, you will get a sense of what a flurry of activity goes on when a master such as he, and I presume Phil C, and others are at work, especially with deep carving and sculpting. It simply appears better to keep the flow and big picture in mind by using 'optivisor' rather than microscope, and to be able to touch up a tool in a few seconds, without breaking one's rhythm. By comparison, when working on a precisely shaded knife bolster, with a lot of time on one type of operation, the 'scope can be very useful, and may extend your working career.

Rod
 
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handengraver

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Kelly, from my experience I would beg You not to use power tools, this job is for handpush gravers. Due to size and the handling complications I would also recommend to use cold point markings on your lines of drawing. Before engraving do not perfectly clean the surface, but leave a thin coat of chinese white on it to protect your eyes from the reflecting light and the confusion of mirroring metal. Study the existing letterings. If You follow the logics of the old engravings, You sure can not go wrong. Good Luck!

Greetings - Ivan
 

James Roettger

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Kellsbells, I know I worked on both of these trophies probably last year and possibly previous years too. Fortunately I can disavow any vibrating graver use as I always followed the format that came before. I usually look at the cup and try to emulate my favorite prior engraver on the cup even if it deviates from the year just prior. It's pretty easy to see the change over of engravers on it as the years are often grouped together in a particular hand.
I used a Lindsay Classic air graver with either a liner for the stems and usually a round bottom graver for the bars. For wriggled stems of course either a liner or flat was used and wriggling was by hand. I would submit that power gravers are an asset for this type of work as they help avoid many of the skips seen on these cups and allow more control on some of the challenging contours as well as making greater depth more easily attainable. To my eye power work is only revealed on these cups by it's more impressive depth and lack of skips.
The wriggling still has to be done by hand. I find wriggling is best done with a weak Optivisor like a #2 or #4. To much magnification and the stems won't be as straight or vertical. Warming up on a piece of copper with wriggling is helpful. I layout with Chinese white and 5H pencil. Within the last year I determined that scribing trophy lettering layouts is just extra work not needed on a good pencil layout. Also the names and dates (not the title lettering though) on trophies typically exhibit a certain spontaneous quality rather than the rigid control of more serious work. I cut the stems first into the white layout proceeding from outer to inner so as not to smudge the layout. Then I add the bars working in a way that I am always traveling toward the bar I just cut. This helps to keep them all in a nice horizontal line as each cut aims toward the previously cut bar.
My contact info can be found on my homepage listed in my profile. I see you are from Minneapolis too so feel free to look me up next time you're in downtown.
 
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Christopher Malouf

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Jim, I was hoping you would chime in. Great post.

-------

Power assist (Airgraver - butnotthatitreallymatters) has helped me prevent slippage on trophy work. That's probably the single biggest reason I use it on trophies. The length of the air assist hand piece + graver can sometimes work against you where a short pushgraver is better suited. I do about 12 of them after each golf season. One thing that helps is to dis-assemble the trophy if it is at all possible. If it is a simple wing nut, removing the base can provide better access to the underside.

I was pretty nervous when I got my first bunch of trophy work. Like Jim R., I taught myself. I did whatever I could do, used whatever I could use (including a little common sense and creativity) to get a quality result. Eventually you'll have a comfort level where you can knock 'em out faster without taking them apart as well as learn the methods of layout which will help produce a quicker turnaround. I've even gone back over previous years that I did to "straighten" up the cuts made when I was sweating bullets.

It is not uncommon to use very light (and I mean very light so it polishes off) scribe lines on sterling in order to mark your horizontal. From there, you can use your Chinese white or modeling clay and pencil. If you have to erase, you don't want your horizontal marks going away as well. Hand polish where you've cut and run a polishing cloth over the entire trophy .... 'cause it will come back to you next year with your fingerprints in black.

You will get more trophies over time, very few will compare to these you have posted. Nothing cuts better than solid sterling and thrown pewter. For the rest, it's "garbage in, garbage out". You'll put more time into a plated trophy than the trophy itself is worth and unlike silver or pewter, you can't fix your slips. If I could afford to decline all plated trophies, I would in a heartbeat.

Best of luck .... I hope I haven't posted anything that conflicts with previous information posted. There's more than one way to get a job done well. Experiment in copper and try everything out.

Chris
 
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