Question: damascening vs inlay

diane b

:::Pledge Member:::
::::Pledge Member::::
Joined
May 26, 2008
Messages
111
Location
montana
Could someone please tell me or direct me to a source so I could understand the difference between damascening and inlay? Thanks for your help.
diane belk
 

Barry Lee Hands

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
1,272
Location
Las Vegas
Damascene is an overlay.
Generally the entire background area is a burr field.
In traditional damascene the face of the punch is larger than the gold to be attached.
The gold is very thin, .004 inch or much thinner.
After that, there are a lot of variables.
 

diane b

:::Pledge Member:::
::::Pledge Member::::
Joined
May 26, 2008
Messages
111
Location
montana
Dear Barry,
thanks for your reply. I viewed your demo earlier in the tips archive. Let's see if I understand what you are saying. It appears that with an inlay technique, a cavity is carved out of the metal that is to be inlaid, and then that cavity surface is "roughed up", but the technique of damascene "roughs up" the surface of the metal without first carving out a cavity in the shape of the design. Inlay uses a thicker metal while damascening uses a very thin metal. Do I have this right? thanks for your input.
diane b
 

pilkguns

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Nov 14, 2006
Messages
1,874
Location
in the land of Scrolls,
I think your question revolves around the definition of "roughed up". As Barry was saying damascene uses a burr feild for attachment to the gold, whereas inlay must use much bigger attachment points. I call them them "teeth" in inlays.

The "roughed up" burfield for damascene is often multiple scratches of the surface. The gold is .004 to less than .001 thick

The "roughed up" " area for inlay or traditional overlay is cuts made much deeper with gravers or chisels where the metal is lifted away from the surface to make the teeth while steel attached at the base. The inlay gold in this case is usually .015 to .060 or even greater for sculpture pieces.

In essence, the thickness of the gold you are attaching is relative to size (or depth) of the attachment points, what you are calling the "roughed up" area. Damascene uses paper thin or thinner gold, and can use almost non-existent scratches for the attachment. Regular inlays or overlays which use much thicker gold require the attachment points to be much thicker. I would guess that normally you need 50% to 75% of the gold thickness for your attachment points.
 
Last edited:

diane b

:::Pledge Member:::
::::Pledge Member::::
Joined
May 26, 2008
Messages
111
Location
montana
Dear Scott,
Thank you for your very clear explanation. After reading Barry's response, my next question was going to be, "what is the difference between overlay and damascene?" which you already answered. You are correct in interpreting my phrase "roughing up" to mean putting in the teeth in the metal which is to be inlayed. I then started wondering how with such thin material in damascene the teeth wouldn't poke through. You answered that question also. BUT NOW I have another question: with such small scratches, how does one get the damascene to attach well? Is damascene only used for items that will be handled carefully such as a gun or knife that really won't be used much,and is more of a collector piece? Is there any kind of welding involved between the base metal and damascene metal (such as in Kum boo or mokume)? Also, thank you very much for the link to the glossary. I remembered that this had mentioned in another thread, but couldn't find it. Technology is great if one is bright enough to know how to use it. I have now added the glossary to my favorite places. Thanks again for your explanation, it really helped.
diane belk
 

Barry Lee Hands

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
1,272
Location
Las Vegas
Damascene holds up as well as any inlay as long as there is no rust.
Rust destroys inlays, or overlays.
All damascene is overlay, but not all overlays are damascene.
Usually the burrfield on damascene is made with a punch, shaped like a chisel,to make raised teeth, as in common inlay.
The knife technique works, but is less common.
Stippling works also.
To quote Ken Hunt:
"The gold merely must adhere"

If the gold is tight to the burrfield, problems are rare and are always from rust.
To quote Neil Young:
"Rust never sleeps"

The real difficulty with traditional damascene for gun and knife engravers is that the punch is the critical tool, and for damascene to be executed easily the punch must be larger that the piece of gold to be applied.
If you are doing a number of identical , or flat pieces, this is not a problem.
For every different surface, it is best to have a punch which has a face to fit it.
That makes it very time consuming on one of a kind curved pieces, because you should make up punches to fit each curve exactly...
This is why most all damascene you see is on flat pieces, or even round pieces such as a vase, pot or bowl, because these are production pieces and it makes it worth the time to make up the punches.
If you "wing it" with a smaller punch, you begin to regret not having dug a hole for an inlay first, because unless the punch is bigger than the gold, the gold tries to squirt out.
 
Last edited:

Roger Bleile

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
2,988
Location
Northern Kentucky
Here is the link in the glossary for damascene:
http://engravingglossary.com/Hand Engraving Glossary D.htm

Barry:

Since rust is the enemy of inlay and overlay, and I am not disputing this point, would not blueing, especially the acid rust method, cause the inlayed material to loose adhesion since blueing is just one form of oxidation? Most inlayed and overlayed pieces are blued to accentuate the contrast of the precious metal but the blueing doesn't seem to negatively effect adhesion.

Roger
 

Barry Lee Hands

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
1,272
Location
Las Vegas
Hi Roger,
Traditional steel or iron substrate damascene in Asia is applied,stippled for shading, then etched with acid to relieve the background, boiled, laquered, and then polished with charcoal.
They don't use bluing usually.
I have seen some old Colts that were damascened, I do not know how they were finished, but Carbonia blue would be a good option perhaps.
Bluing has the same effect on damascene as it does on inlay.
When the etched damascene method I learned in Japan was taught to me, I asked about the acid damaging the steel under the gold.
I was assured the gold is so tight, there is no chance of the nitric acid getting underneath it.
There is a piece on my key chain. a small dragon, that I have been carrying around for three or four years, I have gone swimming in the ocean with it, I have been been drenched to the skin by Typhoons while riding ferries in the Banda Sea with it in my pocket, most of the laquer is worn off the background, and it is fairly rusty.
The gold is still hanging on, without any aparent lack of adhesion.
The difficulty in damascene for gunwork is the problem in applying it properly to different curves and shapes.
It is just as easy, and efficient to do an inlay.
The advantadge to damascene is the reduced amount of gold used. If the cost of material is an issue,and labor is not, then damascene begins to shine.
 
Last edited:

diane b

:::Pledge Member:::
::::Pledge Member::::
Joined
May 26, 2008
Messages
111
Location
montana
Dear Barry, Roger and Scott,

Thank you for responding to my question. You all taught me a lot. I appreciate you fellows taking the time to give me so much information. Thank you.

Diane Belk
 

Latest posts

Sponsors

Top