Announcement: Sorry for sam, phil

charles wu

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
69
Location
China
Dear Sam, Phil Coggan and All,
Im so sorry for the two section copy I did without permission from you.

Dear Sam, Like your topic,
1.) Ask permission before tracing another engraver's work.
2.) Don't sell another engraver's designs.
For this topic, I'm all for that.

Im really love and respect your work, also there are many fans in China. We all like your work.
Im so sorry for my blind action,I did the two attempt practice work without your permission.


Hear what im going to say something more pls.

I promised, I had the two copies at some point in order to learn, not for sell, not for trade. At least now it does. I want to verify how does the traditional chisels will work on the western pattern.

Dear Phil, please think nothing of ours intention on the copy work photos show here. Like all the others. we all show our work here, some are good, some are not good enough, so calm down, It is a simple in my opinion.

A: We show our work here, we want to get the more and more praise, approval, it is like the wine quickened desire, it is more than money.

B: We show our work here,we want to collect the criticism,the comments, There is an chinese saying, However strong you are, there is always someone stronger, they can let you know some weakness, some fault. And we will be better.

C: we came here from the world, talk and show, talk our passsion, show our work,
I believe, I show, you show, then he will show,
so we see more, we know more, we learn more,
then you know that, he know that, and we will unrelaxing.
Like the ideals of create design wider and deeper, not only the cut by cut, line and line copy.

D: for a business man. If he really want to copy something for business. He will not show photos here.

In fact, I have my own standrd style, the chinese genuine antiquities reproduction and japanese sword guards and fittings making.
And before I did the two copies, I do not know Phil. And I know some now. thanks…

Sorry again, for my initial copy practice.
Again, It is at some point in order to learn, not for sell, not for trade. You see it is not a complete work, it is only one samll sections.
About why I chosed Phil’s, because there are very clear secquence about this article. it is a very good for the practice material. you know, sometimes, Im thinking, it is a god gift for learners like me.
And I posted them, on the contrary,, because I think It is not good enough.
 

Frank P

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
346
Location
Switzerland
Hi Charles, wellcome to the Cafe
a nice tutorial on your first post, hats off..
As you probably noticed in some threads there s a lots of musicians amongst us..And I can tell you there is not one who never copied a song, riff, lyric
of some one else without asking permission... i am going to get a lot of reactions on that one, maybe wrong, maybe right, but in theory it s just the same as with engraving.. lots of us use that to get started, other ones create their own style out of it later, some do it out of lack of inspiration..whatever..
if you show your work to the world, just don t come complain afterwards that somebody got away with as well.. but experts will always note the difference..if not .. you can say you became the strongest one;)

thanks for the chinese sayings, they are very inspiring as well..
Frank:beerchug:
 

charles wu

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
69
Location
China
Thanks Frank,

Even if we want learn something,We can not copy anything, even any part of that, But another questions come to mind, if you are not a designer, if you can not make a drawing, so how can you go on the engraving work? well, i know, make a call, and get the permission form the artist. if they say no, what should you do?

To be frank, I feel a little pity that, some of my photos are moved without any form notice, like PM.....

Anyway, i come here for joy, for learn, i do not want be unhappy, or i do not want any body upset with my post.
 

Sam

Chief Administrator & Benevolent Dictator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
10,489
Location
Covington, Louisiana
Charles: Thank you for your posts about this subject. As long as we all understand and respect each other there will be no problem. You are welcome to participate in the Cafe and be a part of our community.

To answer your question, if someone is denied permission from an artist, then they should respect the artist's decision and find something else to draw. A google book search will show hundreds or thousands of beautiful scrollwork drawings that are in the public domain. You certainly are a very talented engraver and you'll do just fine. :)

Frank P's music analogy isn't quite accurate. As a musician I've played many other people's music, never claiming it to be my own. But purchased sheet music is written for the purpose of playing that music, and I've played in many places that are licensed to play music for money. Abigail and her group will record a CD soon, and they will purchase a license to record and sell music written by others.

Cheers / ~Sam
 

Phil Coggan

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Apr 2, 2008
Messages
1,147
Location
South Wales
Charles,
I accept your explination and apology and I understand that you did this to learn.
I also understand that you are doing your best to keep up the old traditional methods which is ok with me, however, I have to explain something regarding your post below on another forum (which includes a picture of my work), also your suggestion that outside China traditional skills are disappearing, believe me, they're not, I can think of a whole bunch of guys producing fantastic work, Weldon Lister & Martin Strolz are just two using traditional methods.

I have been engraving for over 30 years, traditionally, ie. hammer and chisel, punches, etc. etc.
I had no interest in power tools....at all! That is until about two years ago when I tried one. It speeds up the work and causes less stress, this is not a bad thing especially for the business side of things.

For carved work I use power for the removal of the bulk of the metal, the rest of the work is traditional.

It seems these days and i've seen it a lot, some new would-be engravers have this idea that if they buy a GRS or Lindsay tool, sharpening templates etc. then they can produce work just about as good as anyone.
A power tool is just a tool it is not magical.
The true power comes from within!

Ok...enough of this, I have seen your work, you are a good artist and craftsman, keep this work up and develope your own personal style.

Phil


Charles Wu said:
Here i want to mark, why i make this small piece... it is not a work for a gun....
it is my first try of western style.

I just want show to someone,
and let them know the true,
the modern engraving tooling can do that, the simple traditional carving also can do.

Below is a airgraver work by Phil Coggan,
 
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Frank P

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
346
Location
Switzerland
Sorry Sam for my English but by saying "without permission" I didn t meant : "claiming to be owner"
it just would n t work if someone plays *hell s bells* and claims it, unless you re one of the Young brothers;)
Frank:beerchug:
 

Sam

Chief Administrator & Benevolent Dictator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
10,489
Location
Covington, Louisiana
No problem, Frank!
I hope you're enjoying the holiday season. :beerchug:
Cheers / ~Sam
 

Willem Parel

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
1,364
Location
The Netherlands
I think there is one more thing to be mentioned in this case.
I am a beginner in engraving and I think when I would have tryed to copie the work of Phil and posted it here nobody would react as in case of Charles.
With my skills I would not be able to make it look like a piece of Phil Coggan so you al would have comment that as a nice try and keep up practicing etc. etc.
But because Charles have also much engraving expierience in traditional Chinese patterns he is capable to make a copie that reach the level of Phil (am I right??)
And then everybody gets sharp because it looks like a Phil Coggan piece.
I think when one of you were able to paint an painting exactly the way Van Gogh did the artworld would keep an eye on you even when you did it for your own purpose.
I am glad it turned out the way it did but I had to say this because I think Charles has had no bad intentions with this work.
But nevertheless it would be polite to ask permission when copieing others work.
Willem
 
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handengraver

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2009
Messages
180
Location
San Antonio, TX. USA
The Burdens of Greatness

In the jungle of legal, moral and ethical standards and expectations concerning the imitation of another master's work we should establish a common platform among ourselves.

There were hundreds of calls during my practice, when I had to copy an earlier or contemporary master's work on the costumer's demand. Usually I received old and worn pieces of jewelry with recent corresponding copy, and the task to engrave a family crest or monogram as it was done on the old piece. I never had any scrupules to perform such jobs. Often I am shown pictures of engravings with the client's wish to engrave "something like that". My general answer is that "it might be similar, but sure won't be the same, I prefer to use my own design and style". Yes, style is another sensitive issue, we are all impressed and influenced by other engravers' works. Even without the conscious drive to imitate, the seen and favored motives suddenly appear, perhaps with some mutation in our own work. Copyrighting certain designs might be practical (at the same time costly) but even so there is no absolut and global protection under the law. In our field the right to imitate is less questionable, as the copy or imitation is the tidiously detailed individual product of another artisan, and not one of some commercially mass produced multitude of imitations. Who invented the scrollwork? Can anybody claim exclusivity on it? The linearly progressing continuous scrolls were present since the earliest times, when men started to decorate the few items they possessed, or the walls of their caves. The so called running wave design is about as old as the humane race itself.

After spending half a century as a full time skilled engraver, my dream is that one day, perhaps someone will find some of my works worthy to make a copy of. Untill then I just enjoy the fact that there is a good number of Highly Esteemed Masters who let us all see their works, learn from it or just enjoy their beauty. And in my view Mister Wu is one of them.

Greetings to All - Ivan
 

charles wu

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
69
Location
China
Sam, Thanks. Im happy here. thanks your understanding, yes, we respect each other. and it is a key.

To answer your question, if someone is denied permission from an artist, then they should respect the artist's decision and find something else to draw. A google book search will show hundreds or thousands of beautiful scrollwork drawings that are in the public domain. You certainly are a very talented engraver and you'll do just fine. :)

Thanks Sam, thanks your kind answer. Thanks your excessive praise.
Yes, you are right. we have to stop, if someone is denied permission from an artist. And i think that is only a " IF " in fact, most of them will give the permission to us to make a learning try. But have to ask first. this is a politeness.

But haha, my dear friend, for the google searching, it is not a very good ideal, or it is not a safe way either. Cause may be i happened to picked up one or two from the searching, and those are belong to Mike, and Mike may be make a complain call to me, Wu, what are you doing there, Man, that's my work bla bla, Sorry, Im joking.:beat up:,

i respect every one, I respect Phil, the great artist, who make friends with engraving more than 30 years. who can make a engraving seems like camera. when i think this one more time. i have one more respect on him.

Cheers
Wu
 

charles wu

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
69
Location
China
Thanks Phil, thanks your full trust,

In this era of rapid scientific and high-tech advancement, more and more high-tech element input. less and less traditional crafts keeping, more and more transmutation or missing, even in China, the comparative low labor cost area, there are few young people know how our works making.

I believe, Phil, The traditional crafts did not disappearing outside China, and are growing in the world, Im happy to hear that, the situation in the world is not bad. I trust, something like the handmade crafts, if they are more traditional they are more modern, Because in my eyes, With the rise of mechanised production and standardised products, they are following the same pattern; thousand pieces of the same tune, there came the need for something not like that. They are need the personalized ones… Hope the really traditional crafs are still can return back.

“ I had no interest in power toolsâ€￾, I got it, Thanks your story, Pls forgive my ignorance before. about you, about the work.

Yes, Tooling not the key of the engraving art work, only speeds up the work and causes less stress, they are not the magical.
Thank you. Thanks for all, I will run my style, and I also like the new thing, If I have problem on other style, I will ask for advice. Thanks advance,
 

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