Question: Side by Side Shotgun

eastslope

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Does anyone know anything about Ugartechea shotguns? There is one for sale here and all it says is: Ugartechea Mdl 30 SXS Case Colored 12ga 2 3/4" 28", $800 OBO.

Is is a good shotgun? Is it good for engraving? Are they a piece of junk with a fancy website? This greenhorn doesn't know much about anything else. The only shotgun I ever used for hunting was a rusty old single shot 12 gauge with a cracked stock due to a motorcycle mishap. I could sure use some advice on this matter if anyone has any to give. Thanks a bunch everyone and have a good weekend, Seth
 

fegarex

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I'v never heard of that particular brand but being in the gun business all my life I would look for something else. Spanish doubles can be OK or junk. From what I can see it probably wouldn't be any better than a Stoeger. I assume it is case hardened and would make it a pain to engrave as well. If you really want a decent shotgun that you can engrave, look for an early model Browning Citori that doesn't have any engraving or limited engraving. Well built gun, great metal to engrave and parts/service are available.
Rex
 

DKanger

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If you type Rigby into the search pane of that site, there are a couple of guns engraved by Marcus Hunt back in the 90's.
 

eastslope

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Thanks guys. Its difficult to find a decent shotgun that doesn't already come from the factory with some horrible rolled on, stamped on, lasered on, poorly designed form of engraving. Especially when you don't know anything like me. My dad has an older citori, and they are a decent gun, but tough to find without engraving. That and I have a phobia about buying papered guns, even though I have every right to do so.:)
 
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tolesh

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Thry are a good spanish double especialy if it is a newer one (last 10 years). They run about $1800 new.
 

Roger Bleile

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The Ugartechea model 30 is the bottom box lock in their line. They are pretty well made and not junk. Far superior in fit, finish, and balance to a Stoger.

Between 1945 and the 70's lots of cheap, poorly made doubles were imported from Spain. Even though the Spanish could make quality guns some importers exploited their post war economics to have them make guns for import at a low dollar price. This practice hurt the reputation of Spanish guns for years.

Eventually the Eibar (Spain) gunmakers converted to specializing in quality, hand made doubles at a reasonable price. Today some of the world's best doubles come from Spain. The best names are Armas Garbi (gunmaker to King Juan Carlos), Arrieta, Aguirre y Aranzabal (AYA), Grulla, Ugartechea, and arguably the best of all, Arizabalaga who used to make guns for Rigby when Paul Roberts owned the company in London.
I have two Garbi's and an AYA. They are the best doubles I have ever owned. I gave my nephew a model 30 Ugartechea when he graduated from law school.

Now the question is: Is a Spanish double a good gun for upgrading with top quality engraving (from an economic point of view)? I don't think so but then there are not many options for the American engraver. For years American engravers have made a trade of upgrading Winchester model 12's, 21's, and 42's. None of these are inexpensive but the model 12 is the least expensive of the group. But if you choose a 12 do not do a plain field grade. You must choose a model with a factory vent rib. Then there is the issue of wood. If the gun does not have high grade wood it must be restocked because a highly embellished shotgun with plain wood does not fly in the market place. The Ugartechea model 30 would have plain wood and it would cost $1,000. - $2,000. to have a good custom stock made for it. On a model 12 you can often find one with high grade wood yet unengraved.

As far as upgrading a Browning Cetori, my experience has indicated that collectors don't want to put a lot of $$ into a Japanese made shotgun. A grade I Belgian Browning Superposed is another prime gun for upgrading but again the wood must be upgraded.

I have to say that if you are as unfamiliar with the world of fine shotguns as you have indicated, I would stay away from dabbeling in that area until you learn much more. Subscribe to the Double Gun Journal and Shooting Sportsman and you will learn much while seeing good pictures of fine engraved shotguns in every issue. There are many pitfalls to buying a used double barreled shotgun. Too many for me to go into here. The first few I bought 40 years ago, I got screwed on every one but I learned my lessons and have had many fine ones since.

I'm sure that every American engraver here yearns to engrave sidelock shotguns like our counterparts in the UK and Europe do but we are in a different position here. There are only two American makers of fine sidelock shotguns, Galazan in Conn. and Rigby in California so there is not a lot of work with them and one must be top tier to work on their guns. Most of the Galazans are sent to Italy for engraving because that is what the customers want.

A long answer to your question but it opens up a wide area for discussion and I have only scratched the surface.

CRB
 

JT Kinney

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I have one of these guns in 16Ga. I have had it for well over 10 years with not one problem. The origional chamber was 2 9/16", so I rechambered it to 2 3/4" It is really a nice shooter. Mine has a small amount of engraving, mostly line work. I believe I paid about $250.00 for mine.

Best Wishes,

JT
 

eastslope

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Thankyou everyone! Roger, I loved your long answer, and I learned plenty from that bit. That "Made in Japan" thing always bothered me also, even though they are a fine gun. With my current abilities as an engraver, I still need to put some miles on my gravers before I am even ready to consider a fine firearm, but I am always looking ahead and hope to be ready and confident sooner than later.

JT, Tolesh, Kanger, Leroy, and Rex; A big thanks to all of you.... I think I will hold off on this. Heck, its probably sold already anyway. Thanks again, Seth
 

fegarex

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Seth. I was mistaken thinking the double was older. Roger gave good input on this and I agree the later versions are much better. I just wanted to warn you and others about jumping into some of the early stuff. I have seen versions from Spain and Italy that looked like nice guns but were nasty inside. I recently had a customer bring in an early Italian side lock that looked decent but the safety didn’t work well. He paid enough for it too. I took it in and said I would take a look at it. The first thing I discovered was it was a box lock with false side plates. There is nothing wrong with that unless you think you are paying for a side lock. Then came the safety… All the parts were crude soft and cobbled together. After about 3 hours I got the safety working better but it took bending, filing and honing to do so. This is common for all of them.
I was assuming you were looking for a fairly affordable shotgun to use for yourself with an option of engraving. That is why I suggested the Citori. Yes, there is some objection to it being made in Japan but the quality of the gun is first rate. The Japanese were one of the first to get on the bandwagon with CNC machines and the inside of a Citori is machined as nice as a Superposed. I assume the Italian and Spanish have now added the equipment as well. Still, it may be hard to find a side by side shotgun that doesn’t have some engraving or worse, case hardened. Of course the engraving can be removed and action annealed but all of this tales expertise and money.
I am constantly asked if there is some affordable shotgun that is engraver friendly and there just isn’t many out there. I did mention the Stoeger double. Frankly, 20 years ago I would tell you to stay away from one of these too. Once I had a chance to take one apart and see how they were made, I changed mind. Don’t get me wrong… they aren’t state of the art but they also sell for less than $400 as well. For the money, they offer an engraver something better than a “practice plate” without jumping into a big dollar gun. I wouldn’t do one of these as a speculation gun but for the hobby engraver that wants to do one for themselves or for gift, they aren’t a bad gun and have a larger company backing them for parts and service.
Again, this advice is for the engraver looking for something to “mess around” with and not try to make any money with. A $2000.00 engraving job on a $400.00 shotgun isn’t going to work but if you are wanting to make the jump from practice plates and do something for yourself or for an inexpensive fund raiser these will work.
 

DKanger

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Again, this advice is for the engraver looking for something to “mess aroundâ€￾ with and not try to make any money with.
I realize he is talking about SxS doubles but how about Ruger #1's or Red Labels? I have a Red Label, unfired, that I bought in the 80's. It's a 20 ga and has a blued receiver, unlike the 12 ga which has the stainless receiver. Is there a difference in the receiver metal? Can these be cut without a lot of heat treating? Likewise, the #1 is also blued.

Dave Kanger
 

Roger Bleile

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Dave,

I don't think you will have any trouble with the blued RL. I have done a couple of them years ago and they were no problem, hardness wise. The SS ones are known to be very hard. Also for anyone thinking of doing a Gold Label...don't even consider it! I did some light coverage on one and it was like engraving a diamond. Paul Lantuch says they had to be annealed to work on when he ran the Ruger engraving shop.

RB
 

fegarex

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I second what Roger says. The blued Red Labels are sweet. I have done several stainless ones and they seem to vary but the last couple I did were just near impossible.
In general, the #1 blued versions are tough but not impossible. Again, they vary as well but can be engraved. With Ruger's track record of stainless I haven't attempted a stainless #1.
 

Roger Bleile

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My experience on the blued #1 is the same as Rex. As forest Gump said they are like a box of chocolates...you never know what you will get.
 
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