Question: Regarding sam's copying sticky

John B.

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In order to not make Sam's sticky too long I am posting my ramblings as a new thread.
Mindful that Sam does not like too many or long stickys here goes. :tiphat:

Thank you for this interesting piece, Sam, and for the thoughts of others.
I realize you want to keep the Café forum clean and that’s a totally different matter from my somewhat related questions below.

When one engraves a piece and sells it, or engraves it for a client, who is damaged if it is copied?
The artist received payment for his/her work and design and relinquished ownership.
The now owner may suffer damage if copies devalue his original.
But he has to prove that he is damaged and has an actual loss.
Even though he/she is not the original artist do they have the right to seek damages based on the duplication and copy of the artwork?
The artist has sold the piece or service and has no material ownership rights other than perhaps retained copyright.
What remains, if any, his/her rights of recovery beyond this?

I question this based upon this example that many of us already know about.
About 25-30 years ago much of the engraving work on firearms in the US and even in Belgium was based upon the duplication of high grade factory patterns to upgrade or add engraving to lower grade but good quality Winchester, Colt and Browning guns.
These original designs were developed in the factories and owned by them.
We all know that these factories had lawyers and were well aware of all the copyrights.
I can only assume that they must have deemed it would be unprofitable to attempt a lawsuit to recover damages based upon this as I never heard of a case filed against an engraver or even a Cease and Desist letter.

Do you think that the possible recovery an award of damages for the duplication of a copy or two of an engraving would cover the cost of time, money and heartache involved in pursuing such a lawsuit?
To answer my own question, I would have to say no as a practical matter.
As engraver/artists we might not like it and get puffed up.
And fellow engravers may give us support and TLC.
Unlike the theft of the intellectual rights and mass duplication of a piece of recorded music, a video or movie the theft of one or two copies of an engraving do not have enough recovery value to reward the plaintiff’s time in my opinion.

Look forward to reading other engravers practical opinions.
Best regards.
 
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RoycroftRon

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I see your point but I have to disagree on one point. When the artist sells the piece, they are not selling the design, only that one application of the design. The original artist usually retains rights to the design so that they can profit from future applications.
 

Mike Cirelli

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John I have to agree with you. The most you could probably receive in damages is the profit achieved by coping the design. Even then the burden would be on the artist to prove ownership. Then it would have to be exactly the same e.g. size, each line, everything. Music is much easier to prove duplication because of the obvious.
I'm not sure that by placing a picture on a website and stating that has copyrights is proof enough to claim ownership. A very inexpensive way to prove date of creation and ownership is to; photograph and document the artwork properly with it notarized and send it to yourself registered mail with the postal stamp over the gummed flap. Send more than one copy. The copyright office has a inexpensive quick copyright for artwork of an artist in which jewelry and engraving fall into.
 

Two Ponies

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My .02 cents worth on this thread are not very valid, as I am a brand new trainee and probably will never try to sell anything and don't care too. My only HOPE is that with a lot more practice I can finally achieve some level of work that will please ME enough to say I know how to engrave. This is where the copying concept comes into play. I know Sam's feeling for this as I recently took his class and told him I intended to copy others work. After then getting the business, my reply was that at age 73 I did not have long enough time left to spend years and years learning to draw,,,I needed to learn HOW to engrave. After a week in class with all the other students who were quite professional, compared to my beginner status I'm sure Sam will agree it will be a long time before I get to be an engraver. Just the view from my saddle. :(
 

Marcus Hunt

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I agree with you John. This is such a touchy subject though. My take is, those of us who have been trained in the commercial world don't seem to worry so much about "copying". There is a huge difference between a copy and a forgery and the vast majority of engravers would be incapable of the latter because of the unique way every individual engraver uses their tools.

I actively encourage my students to copy other engravers' work as it helps to give them an understanding of design and construction and I know that however hard they try, they will not be able to replicate something exactly but will, in time, bring their own style to their engraving.

Several times, I have actually been commissioned to match up particular styles of engraving. Does this make me a bad person because I had to copy someone else's work? In my opinion, no. It's something countless engravers in the commercial world have to do every day; perhaps it's to match up a missing or damaged piece.

Whilst I do not agree with taking a particular engraver's design and passing it off as one's own, as every year passes I see trends ebbing and flowing through the engraving world. Creative Arts brought a particular style to gun engraving world and in doing so created a demand for that style. In order to fulfill the clients' desires for this style, many other Italian engravers 'copied' that style. Some are excellent and created wonderful work and are nothing to do with the Creative Arts collective as such, and others are mediocre and even poor at executing the style. But the demand is there and they will cut that style until the fashion changes in which case they'll move on to the new demand.

I have seen countless knife engravers recently who are developing a similar style with their scrollwork. In fact, some of it is so similar you'd be hard pushed to tell one from another in some cases. Gold through the scrolls seems to be the in thing at the moment. It started with one or two engravers doing it as their signature piece, and before you know it virtually every knife engraver is using gold in their scrolls. I don't know whether this trend is client or engraver lead; perhaps someone could enlighten me?

In the English gun trade, as John says, we have to copy factory designs. But within these bounds there is a myriad of opportunities for an engraver to express themselves. If you ever get the chance to look at a lot of, for example, Purdey shotguns you can see the many differing variations on the theme. In fact, being hand engraved, each is unique even though it 'copies' the same pattern.

Just my two penny worth....
 
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truehand

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It seems to me that we have Copyright Law to provide the legal framework for respecting the 'economics' of creative work and that it's our basic morals/ethics that set the laws for things like taking credit or not giving credit to the original artist. Which is just wrong.

I agree with everything you just said Marcus. An example is your 'Mars and Minerva' nickel (that just sold for $510.00USD, congratulations!) A fine and skillful copy and you gave full credit to the design's origin. The work and skill required to produce the nickel was all yours so of course you deserve the remuneration for your efforts. If you were to make a die and proceed to produce, and sell at a profit, millions of these coins, only then might the 'owner' of the original artwork have something to say. (Unless it's public domain?)

Sam, you have provided a massive amount of amazing artwork on www.istockphoto.com that is especially useful for us engravers, thank-you!! Question: I've purchased it and used it for personal AND commercial gain in layouts that I've engraved and sold for profit. I never 'sign' this type of work or take credit for the design but then I don't give you credit for it either.
I have wondered if this is legal or ethical?

I consider myself just an engraver for hire and not an artist. Meaning, I charge for my time nothing more. If and when I do produce something uniquely my own, I will sign it.

When it comes to creativity we must remember that We are all dwarves standing on the shoulders of giants.

Dave.
 

Sam

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Sam, you have provided a massive amount of amazing artwork on www.istockphoto.com that is especially useful for us engravers, thank-you!! Question: I've purchased it and used it for personal AND commercial gain in layouts that I've engraved and sold for profit. I never 'sign' this type of work or take credit for the design but then I don't give you credit for it either.
I have wondered if this is legal or ethical?

Dave: As long as my istock designs are used in accordance with the license agreement (and any questions should be directed to istock because I'm not qualified to answer them), then everything is ok. You don't actually purchase my artwork, but a license to use that artwork (and thank you, btw) which is defined in the license agreement. This is a different situation than someone copying an engraver's designs from the Cafe gallery. I would say that if you're using one of my graphic designs for engraving, I wouldn't mind being credited, but I also don't expect credit and you are under no legal or ethical obligation to do so. :)

Cheers / ~Sam
 

Barry Lee Hands

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Sam, how would I find your stuff on istock?
I did a quick search on it for Sam Alfano, but did not find you, is there a better way?
Thanks,
B
 

Brian Hochstrat

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As we all know the question what is considered copying, is a very subjective and that there are so many shades of grey area it really does come down to an individuals own belief system (I am not a lawyer so I am talking about the moral aspects, not the legal) As most will agree copying line for line is wrong, the only excuse given for when it is alright is for practice purposes. I tend to disagree with that as well, however if that is what you feel you must do, then just keep it to the privacy of your own studio, and wait until you have something done on your own to post it.

Marcus was talking about copying styles, this I do not believe is immoral. Styles are just designs that have similar aspects and are always evolving. Being you must learn to work in that style and we all have our own perceptions, the outcome will never be identical and will eventually move in different directions, which expands into more styles. It is kind of like a tree branching, and without the original stump you would have nothing.

Marcus the trend of gold in knives, is collector driven, I would love to stay in grey scale like the Italians do, but thus far, they are the few exceptions where no gold in the engraving is still sought after.
 

Mike Cirelli

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Copyrights are just as it says. Only exact copying fall into infringement. I spoke to Robert Finlay about this same subject a few years ago. He is quite the inverter with numerous patents and copyrights, he's also a very good engraver. He is the original inventer of the Jerky Shooter, a device that is somewhat like a caulking gun that makes beef jerky out of ground beef. Well he had a copyright and a pat. pend. on it. His jerky shooter was in most sporting goods stores. Then along came a Chinese company changing a few things made it a little longer. The Judge allowed the other to continue importing the lesser expensive product. You can guess what the rest of the story is.
He suggested to me to think more toward the Trademark side of things, and it made much more sense. If you think about it, the swoosh on Nike shoes and products is much more valuable then the shoe itself. You could probably copy a pair of Nike shoes and they wouldn't even bother with you but put the swoosh on it and look out.

I'm thinking of a fine example of an fine engraver on this forum that signs his work in an unique way. That should have a trademark.
 
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