Engraving fees:

I would like to start a discussion about rates charged by artists for thier engraving work.
I get the feeling that some artists sell their work way too cheap. Is this their way of justifying being an artist and not a business person?
If we don't think we are worth a good price for our skills, can we expect the buyers to think we are worth top dollar?

Glenn: No doubt many artists, including engravers, work too cheaply. There are many factors that can affect how much a person can charge, including quality, demand, supply, reputation, etc. Many artists are notoriously bad business people, and I'm not sure I have a suggestion for helping that. It might be the 'free spirit' personality that many of us have...I don't know.

You make an interesting point in your last sentence. I believe our work should be presented with confidence. I have always stuck to my guns as far as pricing. If an engraver loses some work as a result of this, I think it will help build a reputation for quality that customers must pay for. It's easy to make ourselves (and our work) look cheap, and this can make it really tough to survive. I'd be interested in what others have to say on this interesting subject. / ~Sam

Re:Engraving Fees

Hi Glen,
In my opinion. The hand engraving industry has just started to be
re introduced to the North American public as a service that is available.
When around 1900 the pantograph came into being and machine cut jobs
and prices displaced hand engraving, people thought that was what should
be charge for all engraving. The number of hand letter engravers dropped
form say a hundred men down to one per big city. None out side of big
cities at all. That part of the industry will not come back either.
Decorative hand engraving has enjoyed a rebirth in North America in the last
fifteen years. There is 70 year when it was not the fashion or there was lack of talent, decorative engraving has slipped from the memory of the public. They simple don't know what engraving should cost.
It is part of every engravers job to re educate the public as to what can
be done how much its worth. It's kind of funny to see the look on a shop
owner face when I say a full coat of arms on a signet is $150.00
Whole sale. The first words out of there mouth is that's $300.00 retail.
My reply is usually, you don't have to charge full keystone. My price
$150.00 and no discounts. If you can get it cheaper, then do so.
I suffer form no lack of business. My base is $36.00/hr and this keep me
competitive with the only other hand engraver in the district. He couldn't set
a stone if his life depended on it. That is why I have no lack of business.
I'm also a shameless self promoter. Talk to ya later,
Jim

Jim Zimmerman
Alpine Custom Jewellers & Repair
www.handengravingcanada.com

Jim: Stanley Diefenthal, owner of New Orleans Arms Co, said "If you don't toot your own horn, nobody will do it for you." This was in regards to self-promotion. It can certainly be done in a non-offensive, professional way.

The keystoning issue is one that gets under my skin at time. I charge $500 for a seal (coat of arms), and if a store says "that's $1000 retail" I politely suggest that they simply not double the price on everything they touch. I guess this is a touchy subject in the jewelry trade. / ~Sam

Hi Sam,
Yes and no for kestone. You certianly will not get it on large diamonds.
Silver you can get triple keystone. The trade work is usually keystone,
but think it should change for hang engraving. Our time is a limited resource.
Let face it, a lot of the designs are more complex and require a lot more
design time. I charge for mock up time, layout, and the actual engraving.
We are not just doing three standard birds, left face, right face, and a full
frontal, that came out of stock design book. If the customer comes to me
for custom work, he is asking for my style of engravig. Thats worth
a premium price.
Jim

Jim Zimmerman
Alpine Custom Jewellers & Repair
www.handengravingcanada.com

When pricing jewelry work such as repairs or restoration or even stone setting. I go by how long it takes not by what others charge, 75 to 100 dollars an hour is not unrealistic when your at the bench. Hand engraving is relatively new to me and it takes me a little longer than most but I don't charge less I just get paid less per hour. If your efficient at what you do your hourly income will be quit decent. You can't charge the customer when you go to lunch or the bathroom, take a break or chat with a friend. When you work for yourself you don't get paid for those sort of things. You only get paid when you work. If you charge $100 for something just because someone else is that is as competent as you, and their only making $10 an hour, unless you want to make $10 an hour it would be quit foolish. When doing many repetitive jobs i.e., ring sizing, stone setting, gold line inlay, family crests, inside ring engraving an so on. You can time yourself to see how long it takes without mistake corrections. Figure out how much you need paid per hour an viola you got a very accurate price list, and if you don't screw up to much you'll make money. Don't forget the overhead all the little things add up.

If a jewelry store can get a $1,000 for a crest on a ring God is blessing them. I don't keystone everything you just can't get it anymore especially diamonds.
But on the other hand the overhead is very high when you have a store. A few things like workers comp insurance, 20,000 watts of electric everyday, wages, matching social security for employees, rent or mortgage, health insurance, Jewelers block insurance to protect your own and other's valuables, bonus's to keep the employees happy, donations I could go on an on. Out of that $1000 the store is charging the owner will probably clear if their lucky $150 or $200 when it's all said and done at years end. But you should stick to your guns and charge what you need to charge the store does. Nether should be criticized for it.

Just my thoughts.
Mike

Mike: You make valid points about the cost of doing business. While shops make little profit on one thing, they must try to make up for it on others. The cost of doing business in a retail shop is waaay high as you pointed out.

This thread reminds me of some special baby cups I was asked to engrave a few years ago. They were nice silver cups ($100 or so retail) with a custom style of lettering and cutting that was definitely out of the ordinary and quite cool. I was told that if I charged $100 for the engraving, the retail customer's price would be $800 for the cup, so to please keep my price as low as possible. Sometimes it appears that the guy at the bench is asked to take the hit and make less money. This is where my stick-to-my-guns policy comes into effect. I assume they found someone else to engrave 'em.

Hey, the jewelry trade is a thriving industry that puts a lot of money in many craftsmen's pockets. Like anything else, if we find a balance, it usually works out in the end. / ~Sam

Your exactly right Sam, nobody should base there fees on somebody dictating to them what they think should be charged. Just because an item is less expensive doesn't mean you work has to be. I've been there I had about 12 stores I did work for most were larger chain and department stores. It was a pain; if a new manager was brought in they would always try to beat you up on pricing. Independents were much better to work for.
Mike

I view an engraver much like a merchant with only one bucket of apples to sell.
When they are all gone it is over. No more apples to sell.
I've thought about Ben Shostle a fine engraver who sold all his apples, lost his sight and then lost his life.
Every item we engrave is like selling one of our apples with the exception that part of our sole goes with each work of art. Now at the end of the day when our tools are worn out and our vision has gone what do we have left in our bucket? Hopefully a great reputation and bucket full of money is there to comfort us in the final hours. There is nothing wrong in being a good business person as well as a great artist.

Re:Engraving Fees

Hi Glenn,
Well said. If your in the business long enough, hopefully you reach
a balance between making a good living and having enough time to enjoy
what you've worked for. Making the customer slightly uncomfortable about
what they have to pay for your my work is what I shoot for. Having a wife
to tell you to come out the shop and take her out to have a good time
also give me balance. Being able to have a night out at the casino to
means I'm doing Okay. Being able to put WOW factor into what I do,
is the rest of it.

Jim

Jim Zimmerman
Alpine Custom Jewellery & Repair
www.handengravingcanada.com

Hi JC. No problem, I knew what you were saying. Thanks for your valuable input. / ~Sam

JC: That is why I opened a retail store. If I sized a ring back then for $9.00 the stores were charging $27. So I decided why not open a store and I'll charge $27. But I also think if your not going to go retail then you have to put up with the alternative or look for another line of work. If you have an accurate price list I explained this earlier and the store agrees upon it then you will make the money you want to make. My watch maker is very skilled he is not on my premises, I get an estimate from him (he knows what he needs to make) I never question his fees, He never questions my charges. If I wasn't here it would have been 3 less Rolex's for him to fix last month Of which he made over a $1000. In retail or wholesale your always going to get someone that thinks they know your business better than you and try to beat you up on prices.
Art engraving is somewhat like custom made jewelry and you should get a premium for that. It's harder more time consuming and takes a higher degree of skill to perform it correctly, in return it should be rewarded monetarily for it's rarity and individuality.
Mike

I think Sam’s statement that “Many artists are notoriously bad business people†is quite correct. I would go further and say that applies to a lot of the trades where the self employed abound.

I’m a signwriter with my own business in Christchurch New Zealand. Everything I do is custom made to order. My skills are called upon to design, quote and make the finished article. Alternatively the customer will give me the canvas to work on. An example of this will be a car or truck that needs signwriting. In this respect I’m no different from an engraver as I have to use my hands and design skills/talent to earn my living. I’ve been self employed for 24 years now

Most of us start out working for someone else and then one day think that wouldn’t it be great to work for ourselves and make all that money the boss makes off us for ourselves. Then the fun really begins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Within twelve months you realise that the hands on work side of things is the easy part. The business side is the killer. Attracting customers, retaining customers, good communication with customers, charging correctly, paying for or correcting expensive mistakes, paperwork, taxes, paying the bills on time, long hours, sleepless nights, trying to keep motivated, sickness, trade shows, good months and bad months, overheads. The list is endless and you haven’t even put a graver to the metal yet.

You suddenly realise why the boss was paying you $20 per hour and charging you out at $60.

Any fool can get into business, staying in business is the hard part. Despite what anyone says, it’s always about the money. No money, then your not in business, it’s that simple. The trouble is too many people make excuses like “It’s not about the money, I just love what I’m doing†Which generally means that they lack the confidence to charge properly for their work. It’s funny how successful business people have no problem whatsoever charging good money for their services.

If a shop wants to put a 500% mark-up on someone else’s work and they can get it….good on them. That’s their business, not yours. You always have the right not to work for them.

How much you charge is as much about self esteem and confidence as anything else. Set your pricing structure according to your needs and aspirations and again, I agree with Sam, “Stick to your gunsâ€

None of us are born “business people†as it is something that has to be learnt just like engraving or signwriting. I would encourage any self employed person in whatever area to find a local school of some sort and do the occasional short business course and learn to become a business person.

Well that’s my 2 cents worth

Cheers
Andrew Biggs

I am a new engraver. Just started this year. I have been a working gunsmith for the past 30 years. I have found that my clients are willing to pay a fair price for good work. What is a fair price? If he comes back he feels that he has not been had and he liked your work. And that is the key. I read in one of the posts that clients need to be educated. This is true. Most time craftsmen always undervalue there work.

This has been an excellent thread with very valuable information that you just don't see very often. I appreciate everyone's contributions. / ~Sam

There is great information in this thread as Sam has said. Sam, make this required reading before any diplomas are given!
I sure like your forum. If all questions and subjects can create this kind of response good artists can become great artists and successful business people. Thanks again.

I like Jim’s comments about pricing so that your customer is slightly uncomfortable. That’s priceless advice. They are not comfortable with the expense, but still the customer wants the value of your artwork enough to pay slightly above their comfort zone. Okay, that’s ambiguous for the guy wanting to know how many dollars to put on a given job. But there are no good answers for an exact dollar amount. No way to define it on per piece basis and even dollars per hour are hard to define, as some people are just faster than others. Some by technique some by skill. But always price your higher than you think. A lot of what people are paying for with engraving is bragging rights. “ I paid $1000 for this engravingâ€￾ They are more likely to brag about a higher price than a lower one. And in so doing they are advertising for you. Not just your engraving, but also that your engraving has a higher value.

If you price your work too high, and the customer balks and says that’s too much, offer them something slightly less with less coverage or flourishes. And let them come back and offer you what they want to spend and then you can try to design your work accordingly.

experiment

as an exercise and for the hell of it I've just put a Hobo nickel on Ebay (item no. 200047633781). I know there are people that pay quite large sums for these nickels and I'm not putting my work in with these real high class pieces...yet....

I carve them for fun and it's nice to get something back for the efforts even though its nowhere near my gun work prices. Anyway part of the ad went like this:

As an English engraver catering mainly for an American market it is difficult to know what to charge for these nickels. I carve them for the joy of carving not for financial gain (I make much more in my day job,lol!), but that being said 5 hours of a Master Craftsman's time must be worth something. I'll let you the bidder decide. Bid what you think it's worth. All I ask is that you do so honestly, not to get one over on the carver.

I thought it might just get through to bid what they think its worth but obviously we're 2 continents divided by a common language as the first bid was for 8p!!! Now is that collector really thinking his time and efforts are only worth 8p? I doubt it. I seriously think that in all walks of life greed takes over and people want something for nothing (or as near to it as they can get). So stick to your guns I say, charge a fair price for a fair days work. People forget that as self employed craftsmen we have to pay mortgage/rent, our own holidays, we get no sickness benefit,etc,etc,etc.

all the best
Marcus

Marcus,
I just bumped your nickel out of the pennies territory anway. I think the detective kind of looks like Lee Griffiths, otherwise I would have bid more... Ha!

regards to you and Lee.

Marcus, I had an interesting experience a couple weekends ago that parallels you coments above.

I have been doing more work on hand made fountain pens int he last couple years and I am really enjoying that fresh market for modern engraving. I went to the Columbus Ohio Pen Show with my portable set up complete with monitors so folks in the ilse could watch me work. My main purpose was to promote my engraving school to the pen market but it had a suprising side effect.

I started working on the barrel of one of David Broadwell's hand made pens that Friday morning. Saturday I started gettign the same question from lots of people. "Is that the same one you were working on yesterday?" On Lady even ask, "How many of those can you get done in a day." ( Mind you this is a complex job that will take about 1 1/2 weeks to finish).

All these folks were floored that I may end up with 60 -70 hrs in this pen. THen you could see the light bulb pop on and often the comment would follow , "Oh, that's why they cost so much." Many of them could not afford such a pen but at that point they had a much better appreciation of just what goes into such a piece.

In our modern microwave society full of multi axis CNC machines, injection molding, and laser cutting equipment I think the general population has lost track of what it means to pay a man a fair cost for hand labor.

I do think part of it is human greed as you mentioned but at the same time I think part os it is that the hyper industrialization and convenience of modern society has trained/conditioned them to be that way.

Ray