Push graver questions

Hi all, and thank you Sam for this great format...
I have been attempting my first practice engraving and have chosen push engraving for now. When trying to execute a scroll line, sometimes my graver goes in too deep. More force will not bring the graver back out. Is there any way to recover from this situation or do I just need to keep at it until I avoid the problem all together?

Hi M.Hickler,

For scrolls you may want to try a hammer and chisel for the main lines, and the interior leaf work, and use the push tool for shading and cross htaching. When I use the hammer and chisel I like to stand over the vise which sits on a pedestal. I can walk around the vise, and cut a scroll in one pass without stopping...no wasted motion. Once you start the cut and you see the chip coming up..hold the chisel the level as you are tapping...it will take some practice...sounds like you are moving the chisel up and down. I hope this pedestal idea helps you out..I stand when I use power assist tools.

Yours truly,
JJ Roberts-Manassas, VA

Thanks JJ
I think I'll try that, but now I have more questions.
1. I can get a chasing hammer for about $23 on ebay. Is the GRS hammer at around $50 worth the extra money?
2. Can I adapt the gravers I have or do I need gravers made for hammer work? (I have a couple of glensteel and a couple with the long thin tang at the back).
3. I have the Meek book which has a good description of using the hammer. Are there other resources you'd recommend?

is your graver sharpend correctly?if so try multiple cuts(dont try and cut it in one go)try simple lines only till you master controll.

I used many different brands of chasing hammers and when I first came across the GRS I thought that it looked a bit odd in its shape, but its so well balanced and good to use so if I would get a new one today it would be it.

MHickler.....The GRS chasing hammer will work fine. The Glensteel gravers will work fine. You could mount one in a piece of hard dowl 6 1/2" long, or use a piece of drill rod for a handle...as for the pedestal I have 2..both made of 4 2x6's. After you nail them all together seal one end off..insert a heavy garbage bag, either fill it with concrete, or heavy stones..seal off the top, and mount your vise. One of my pedestals has a Ray Letourneau vise on it, the other pedestal has a machinist's vise..these 2 set-ups are ideal for walking around...or doing barreled actions and double gun barrels. Mr. Herbst advice about sharpening is very important. You are on the right track with Meek's book..I would also suggest Ron Smith's book "Advanced Drawing of Scrolls". Take an hour each day and draw..Stay tuned to this site there is much to be learnt...hope this will help.

Yours truly,
JJ Roberts-Manassas Va
School of Artistic Engraving
www.angelfire.com/va2/engraver

I like the Belgium style handle from Ngraver. They have set screw to hold the chisel, are made of steel & hold up very well , I have several plus a bunch of homade ones in the same style.
As for a hammer, get the best quality u can afford, I have a German one that's been goin' strong for 20 yrs. I've seen the GRS one's , they look nice and I'm sure they'd be first quality. I grind all my own chisels, if you need one let me know i'll send you one sharpened & ready to go.
Kent

When it comes to chasing hammers, a dozen engravers will likely give you a dozen different answers about the ideal size, weight, handle length and thickness, etc. I've not seen a commercially made chasing hammer that I like with the exception of the ones made by GRS (which are patterend after my hammer that I made about 20 years ago). Most commercially made hammers are made in Pakistan, India, or China, and are crudely finished and have ghastly plating that peels off, not to mention ugly handles. The GRS hammers are beautifully machined and finished, and will look great in a photograph next to your engraving.

I think I've seen ads for custom made chasing hammers, but don't remember where I saw them.

I guess I'm in the minority when it comes to chisel handles. Mine are McKenzie style wooden ones, not the all-steel Belgian type. Either will work just fine, but I prefer the feel and look of wooden ones. / ~Sam

i am very noob at this but when you say that "my graver goes in too deep" that could be a your "Heel" a nice short and sharp Heel can prevent this .. I hope this helps ... Jason B.

i made the worlds' ugliest hammers. out of auto and truck valve stems ! i couldn't afford to buy a real one when i started to engrave. guess what, when i choose to beat on a graver with a hammer, i still use them. they're ugly, but they still work. for your problem, as blows are being delivered to the graver, slowly begin to lower the rear of the graver. this will allow the point to begin cutting upwards towards where you want to go.

mhickler, The push tool was designed for fine lines. The hammer and chisel for heavy lines. The chasing hammer will be what you become accustomed to, but the GRS hammer is fine, but for me a little light. I have made the handles on both of my hammers myself, as I like a little spring in the wood. I also, like Sam, prefer the wooden chisel handle, but I don't really think that matters too much. The secret to control on the push tool is to place the tool to the metal at a high angle so that the point grabs the metal. Lower your hand very carefully until the tool begins to move and then maintain that height. You have to learn to be sensitive to microscopic movement, which takes hours and hours of practice. Start with copper plates and cut line after line as shallow as you possibly can until you are consistent and accurate. Then try an arced line and then a circle. Then heavier lines. Then practice flaring the tool. make your practice cuts very close together so that you utilize every space on the plate. Draw scribe lines varying distances apart from one end of the plate to the other, and cut from a line and to a line. Try to be consistent, however deep you are cutting. You will have boxes of practice plates before you are able to control the palm tool and make it do whatever you want. Be persistent and don't give up. Practice, practice, practice. Same with the chisel, same practice proceedure. Start high and lower the hand to cutting angle as you apply pressure either with the palm tool or the chisel. All of this takes mountains of practice. Don't get impatient. Be determined to overcome............It is much more difficult to learn the hand tool methods than the pneumatic tools, so prepare yourself for that fact mentally and don't get discouraged. Don't put time limits or expectations on your progress, just practice till you get it............Hopes this helps...........Ron S

Oh, by the way, learn how to sharpen your tool properly. This is probably the most important thing you can do with the hand (palm) tool. You do not have the power of the pneumatic tool to overcome any flaws in the tool geometry. This is critical, and essential to making your practice effective. Keep your drawing skills equal to your cutting ability and vise a versa. In other words, do simple designs first with larger diameter spirals and such. The size of your work will shrink relative to your ability to control your tools.....forward!

Hand pushing isn't easy but neither is there any mystery about it. Hammer and chisel are fine if you wish to produce a certain end result but hand pushing produces a result which is hard to attain with other methods. For example, look at English fine rose and scroll and then look at the European equivelant cut with a hammer and chisel and you'll see the results are totally different.

You haven't said how long you've been engraving. When starting out 'pushing' you have to build muscle memory and you will not be cutting scrolls on the 2nd or 3rd day al la GRS engraving classes. It's a slow process and you'll start off first cutting the basic cuts for a week or two and then move on to straight lines and then curved lines or scrolls but this won't happen for several weeks if you are working a full 8 hour day! Hobbyists can expect to take considerably longer but perseverance is worth it in the end. Expect plenty of slips and to cut and stab yourself, it's unavoidable! (take out shares with Band Aid).

The problem you are having at the moment is that you haven't built sufficient muscle power to control the graver; it's as much about holding back as you push as pushing with brute force. When you can cut a continuous straight line without any dips and dives or widening and narrowing then you can move on to scrolls. It is important to learn this step, trying to skip it will not do you any favours. If you are finding that your graver is starting to dive don't put more power on expecting it to level out, it won't. Just gently drop the heel of your hand slightly and it should even out.

As Ron said, correct sharpening is vital but with hand pushing and it's individual nuances eventually you will learn what geometry is optimum for you and that might not be the same as for any one else.

If you like, you can pay me several thousand dollars and come over to England for a few months and I'll get you started on hand pushing, after all I had nearly a quarter of a century's experience before going over to air assistance!!! Come and have a mini-apprenticeship, LOL. Don't let these hammer and chisel merchants sway you from your original path, when you can hand push well you are top of the game.

mhickler - I was doing the same as you trying to get the hand pushing down before investing in more expensive equipment. It is well worth the investment do get a good sharpening system so that when you find the right angles for you, you can reproduce them over and over again. I also found that copper and brass worked pretty well for a learning medium. I have since gone on to a pnuematic system with steel and found the transition pretty sweet. The time hand pushing was well spent.

Marcus - I can't wait until I win the lottery so that I can pay you thousands of dollars and mini-apprentice with you. Don't apprentices start off by sweeping chips off the floor? I'm a real good sweeper.

Hey Sam, I use rosewood, McKenzie style handles. They look, feel... and sound good.

Roycroftron said:

mhickler - I was doing the same as you trying to get the hand pushing down before investing in more expensive equipment. It is well worth the investment do get a good sharpening system so that when you find the right angles for you, you can reproduce them over and over again. I also found that copper and brass worked pretty well for a learning medium. I have since gone on to a pnuematic system with steel and found the transition pretty sweet. The time hand pushing was well spent.

Marcus - I can't wait until I win the lottery so that I can pay you thousands of dollars and mini-apprentice with you. Don't apprentices start off by sweeping chips off the floor? I'm a real good sweeper.

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send me fifty bucks cash, i'll teach you how to steal grocery money an yer wife will never know ! this is a bargain.

sam, those custom hammers were mine; the ones made from used engine valve stems !

hi
i started the same way as monk a diesel truck valve they work fine if hand pushing remember to keep your
other hand or left if your a righty below your work when turning or holding or you will end up with a hand that look like a second hand dart board it really smarts a bit when hanging out your webbing between thumb and finger some hand pushers put one thumb against the other when cutting this may help a bit so you dont slip quit as far because you will just part of learning
happy pushing ron and marcus are dead right they talk from years of knowllege you cant beat that
no how chris

I found this last year and figured when I do get a hammer I will go this way just to get a feel for the act of using one. Haven't bought it yet, as I have spent so much money since the beginning of the year on GRS pneumatic tools. Thought it might be of interest tho, even though Sam is certainly right, in the long run cheap tools aren't good and good tools aren't cheap...

Grizzly Chasing Hammer

In addition to the excellent advice already given, I tought maybe you find it interesting seeing how I engrave inner leaves on a bolt action rifle. The tool only works in a certain angle. This angle must be maintained precisely during cutting. As a beginner you should start working on a flat and soft piece of steel. And not to forget: at a really slowly pace.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwWcX6wrUjw

Best wishes
Martin

Hi Martin

What a neat video. You can really hear the chips "popping out"

Thanks for that
Andrew