iGraver tutorial updated - Rod Cameron shares his thoughts on copying

Sam

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Rod Cameron has taken the time to share his thoughts on copying the work of others, which I have appended to the page that was already there. It's beautifully written piece and is definitely worth reading.

Thank you, Rod!
 

rod

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Thank you Sam, and William!

I feel honored that you have looked kindly on my posting, and I trust others will have their experience to share in the pivotable steps taken in earlier years that launched them in this craft.

best

Rod
 

Ken Hurst

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Rod, I enjoyed your post , many thanks for sharing your thoughts. I use to encourage my apprentist to study their favorite two engravers styles, combine the two if possible and then alter them until they discovered their own style. Those that did seemed to do reasonably well for themselves. Best regards, Ken
 

Cody

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I understand where Rod is coming from, however, for me, it raises a few questions. I'm very new to this game so it's entirely possible that I'm makeing incorrect assumtions but I'm under the understanding that to cut english scroll properly, for example, there are fairly strict rules that apply. If that be the case, It seems to me that if all properly cut "english scroll" is bound by these rules that it is all a direct copy of someone elses design. Somebody must have been responsible for "inventing" english scroll. I've heard tell that an engraver should have his/her own style but should also be proficient in other styles. Useing the "McKenzie scroll" example, if a customer comes with an example of "McKenzie scroll" and a shotgun and says "I want this style of scroll work done on my gun", when Lynton was alive, would the engraver be expected to refuse the work and refer the customer to Lynton to have it done?. Now that Lynton is no longer with us, does that mean that from now 'till eternity, that style will cease to exist other than the examples left by Lynton? or does the no copy rule only apply while the originater is alive?. Just a few thoughts.
 

Sam

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Cody: You raise some interesting questions. I'm not an english scroll engraver, so maybe that disqualifies me from commenting on it, but it appears to me that the style of english scroll has become generic in nature over the years. Obviously there are some truly excellent examples of english scroll as well as some dreadfully poor ones, and I'm not trying to lump them all together. But quite often the overall 'look' of english scroll done by many engravers has similar characteristics. Could this be as a result of production engraving? I'd be interested to hear what others have to say about copying the english scroll style.

To be influenced by and to adapt certain characteristics of another engraver's trademark style is one thing. To copy it to the point that it causes confusion as to who did it is another. As Rod Cameron so eloquently puts it (and I'm paraphrasing), use other engraver's style as a springboard to your own style, and not as a safe landing strip without self expression.

~Sam
 

rod

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Cody,

This is just the type of important and interesting question that should be discussed, and clearly as Sam says there are generic styles where the quality of the engraver's execution is what we would admire as distinctive. I must defer to those with more engraving experience to shine some light on this.

It is a bit ironic that I have written this posting about copying, when in fact my own particular trade is about being asked to make faithful copies. Let me digress for a moment. I put food on the table by supplying the player's wish to have an exact working copy of a particular flute, say, from the 18th century, that has survived into modern times intact, but possibly with some ravages of time, such as warping of the interior bore. Here is the context: the player of "early" music wishes to play the works of long-dead composers from a bygone era on instruments whose design is authentic to the wood flutes that were used in those times. Their interest is to explore the sounds and sonorities that were in fashion in those days, and were in the ears of Bach and Handel when they wrote their masterpieces for the one-keyed baroque flute. So there's a conundrum.... the player does not want a 'Rod Cameron' redesign of an old flute with, say, the acoustics worked out on a computer, etc. Such an instrument would be returned immediately. They want a modern made 'copy' of a good existing original, such that if it were handed to Bach, he would say, "Ah yes! ... a baroque flute" Certainly, they would want me to try to use my skills and understanding to look past any changes of shape caused by warping and age, and not intended by the original maker. So in a sense I am in the business of offering 'copies' of old existing originals made by artisans long dead. Not only that, I am sometimes asked to do ornamentation on the flute exactly like that on the original.

This all comes about as I work for musicians who are interested in re-awakening an interest in what old music ( Bach, Vivaldi, Mozart, etc.) would sound like on instruments contemporary to their period, and not played on the much louder and more complex instruments of today's orchestras. So they don't want a newly created design. The resulting flute is judged on how well its character compares with the original, but with any damage or warpage removed. A slavish copy is not wanted as that would have all the warpage added and hence would not play so well. The distinction is that these are "copies" of long dead makers. No one should be copying living flute makers work.

I guess an equivalent situation would be if you were asked to make an exact copy of a set of richly engraved dueling pistols, from, say, the 1600's. Of course that would be a great commission to undertake, and acknowledged as such, the modern maker's result and the sparkle of her/his workmanship would be a sure sign of distinctive individual style.

No?

Rod
 

ED DELORGE

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Copying the work or others continued

Hello Sam, I have to say as with everything you put your hand to your new forum is excellent. That is possibly why it is so difficult for the student to challenge the Master. However, in relation to copying the work of others, I have to say a few things. Since Lynton McKensey was mentioned, I remember watching his video on engraving, which I own all three session, in which Lynton talked about going to a show in England and seeing a black powder pistol that was engraved in this amazing victorian scroll style engraving in deep releif. He said he persuaded the owner to allow him to take the gun home where Lyton and John Hunt studied the work till the early hours of the morning, and finelly figuring out how to copy it.

If a customer requests a piece engraved in Oak leaf, American, Nimschke, English scroll or McKensey scroll should the engraver say no I won,t copy that style. Or is it possible to create a game sceen that was not photographed or painted by another? Or an engraving of a beautiful woman that does not represent a particular beautiful woman.

We learn from the masters but, as Jesus said, no man will ever be any better that his teacher.

your humble student

Ed Delorge
 

dave

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beautifully put Ed. all leaves will fall ,there is not a person on this forum who has not copyed peace dave
 

Sam

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Hi Ed. Glad to see your participation in the Cafe!

There are no easy answers or black & white rules when it comes to this subject. I believe oak leaf, American, or even Nimschke may fall (or have fallen) into the generic category of styles. I say MAY fall...I'm no authority on whether an engraving style is generic or not. Should the fact that Lynton is no longer with us mean we're free to clone his work? I guess it's up to the individual engraver and how he/she decides whether it's ok to copy and sell a scroll style that another engraver took a lifetime to develop. Lynton felt it hurt him financially when engravers cloned his style. Now that he's gone is it ok to copy and sell it? I don't have the answer to that.

One thing's for sure, and that is the more a person copies the style of another, the slower he or she will develop artistically.
 

Yves Halliburton

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Copyright

Let's all remember that there are copyright laws here to consider. My (basic) understanding is that anything of an original artwork (photo's too) is considered copyright and the reproduction for personal or commercial use needs the expressed permission of the original artist or their hire. I believe that the copyright laws are good for 75 years after the artist has published his "ORIGINAL" work, even if he has passed away. Nimschke died just after the turn of the century and all of his work was done between 1850 to 1900. Therefore anything engraved in 1900 would be allowed to be DIRECTLY COPIED "by LAW" in 1975. R.L Wilson is the publisher of his work not the created of it so Nimschke's work can be copied. I am not saying it is ethical to do so, it is just legal. If you have a photograph, print or copy of something you need permission to use that piece.
I love L.D. Nimschke's and Cuno's style. This brings big questions into play as to how does one design their own work when one loves someone style. Can one create their own design and use the Nimschke or Cuno scroll. But at what point is it considered your style or copying that style. I am very perplexed with this question as I am sure most of us new to this art are. For me creating my own style from these two great engravers has been very difficult and I feel it has been due to my train of thought. I keep thinking that there is no way I can improve on these two styles instead of thinking that it's not better or worse, just different. But at the same time one can't stop thinking as ED stated, "We learn from the masters but, as Jesus said, no man will ever be any better that his teacher." It leaves me very confused.
 

John B.

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Ed and Yves.
May I disagree with one thing that you used from a quotation.
"No man can ever be better than his teacher"
The greatest thing any teacher in any field can hope for is to see students exceed even beyond the teachers ability.
Many of us have been blessed to see this happen and it's a great reward and a joy.
This is how we attempt to move the art form forward, past our own personal abilitys.
Please excuse my butting in to your post. No disrespect intended.
John B.
 

Sam

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Don Glaser used to say (paraphrasing) "The mark of a great teacher is that his students will become better than him". I think there are plenty of examples (in many fields) of students becoming better than their teachers, so I respectfully disagree with the quote to the contrary.
 

sword

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I just received a copy of Ron Smith's new book as a X-mas present. I have learned a great deal just from leafing through it, the same as i have learned many things from this web site. It is my my sincere wish that my work shows these influences not only technically, but morally and ethically as well. Morality being the key (legalities aside). To me copying anothers work it is wrong but to be influenced by another is one of the highest compliments i can give. The line to me is fairly clear. I know in my heart the difference and that is what matters to me. Most of us use scolls of on kind or another and as Sam points out in his art article "The Golden Mean" the ratio of the perfect scoll is seen many times in nature. We also use flora as inspiration. Take a look inside youself and ask " inspiration or replication?" be it nature or anothers work. If the the question conerns you I think you have the morals to make the right decision :0
 

jimzim75

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Hi,
Copying someone else goes only so far. When I was growing up.
I would hang out with guys that wanted to be comic book artists.
This doesn't sound very serious until you find out just how competitive
this art really is. It is deadly. I have two friends who publish their own books,
and make a living from this. When they first started, both imitated Frank
Frazetta. Sort of like saying Lynton Mckenzie.
Frazetta's art is so well known, that clones will not get employed,
and plus no one does Frazetta like Frazetta. But there are a lot of guys
with the Frazetta feel.

There is more than likely going to be a lot of engravers with an Alfano feel
because Sam is teaching a system of engraving with a lot of his own
style included. There is going to be DeCamillus type students that are going
to use Christian's method of balino engraving, but no one will do
DeCamillus like DeCamillus.

Fame will not come to an engraver until he offers something original.
So go ahead and copy, but in the end you will have to show us who
you are.
Jim
 
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Glenn

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In Lyntons video he makes a statement that if your not artisticaly inclined you should not spend any time trying to be an engraver. This would take me completely out of the game of engraving. I have no artistical abilities, but I manage to produce reasonable work which I really enjoy. I look at every one of the engravers work I encounter. I buy their castings and yes I copy some of the artists I think are best. I'm past retirement age and I'm ssslow, but my grandmother thinks my work is beautiful. Good for me and good for grandma!:D :D
P.S. Lynton, I'm still going to keep making chips and having fun!
 

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